Have any of you experienced folk out there done any knife/gun simulation training? I mean using say Air soft/even squirt guns vs a training knife at close range? What scenerios have you used and what equipment. Max distance and closest distance would be helpful too. Any on e use a marking system to sort out the slashes? Thanks in advance for the input. David1
knife vs gun training
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I don't think there is such a thing as a "knife fight." I believe that there are 'knife attacks.' The best defense is 'yellow' and the observation to keep aggressors from closing distance. It's ugly, and the first cut usually determines the winner.
Having said that, I don't think firearms are the cure-all. I think the brain is the weapon. My brain tells me to avoid areas where politics and debates lend themselves to knife attacks.
I sharpen knives, and I do this service for guys who like knives. During this period, I have seen the hands and arms of the "successful" knife guys.
The 'best' one is the guy with a scar running from between his first and middle finger down to the bottom of his thumb.
Had this mark been made by a heavy knife or axe, his attacker would have completely cut off his thumb and first finger.
Romantic, isn't it?
Having said that, I don't think firearms are the cure-all. I think the brain is the weapon. My brain tells me to avoid areas where politics and debates lend themselves to knife attacks.
I sharpen knives, and I do this service for guys who like knives. During this period, I have seen the hands and arms of the "successful" knife guys.
The 'best' one is the guy with a scar running from between his first and middle finger down to the bottom of his thumb.
Had this mark been made by a heavy knife or axe, his attacker would have completely cut off his thumb and first finger.
Romantic, isn't it?
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I've done the marker knife drills, and that really gives you a good perspective on what works and what doesn't when it comes to unarmed against the knife, and K2K applications. In all reality though, when it comes to a "knife fight", The Tourist pretty much summed it up when he said the 1st cut will determine the winner and usually ends it pretty quick.
Franco
Franco
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In close quarters I am much more afraid of a knife than I am a firearm. I have done some training in defending against edged weapons through the department. Basically, we used training knives and beat up on each other and learned drills as to how to try to control the attacker and immobilize the knife.
I think that the key is understanding that you will be cut, but unless something major is severed you can still stay in a fight and win it. Learn to protect your vitals even if you have to take a cut on the back of the arm in doing so.
I think that the key is understanding that you will be cut, but unless something major is severed you can still stay in a fight and win it. Learn to protect your vitals even if you have to take a cut on the back of the arm in doing so.
HOPEFULLY---- Your knife will only be used til you can draw/present your weapon. The BG would have to almost have a hold of me before I go for my blade. Otherwise my pistol will be used. This is the main reason that I teach---streight/fixed blade--double edged--4 to 6" long--in a sheith that you can draw from with one hand.(this,if the laws of your state will allow this type of blade) Also the blade that you choose should be used ONLY to FIGHT WITH. IMHO it should not be produced to core apples,strip wire,or cut open your birthday gift.-------
I train with gun/knife/stick etc. ranges from 30' and closer, with the emphasis on 'interview' distance.
An airsoft is next on my wish list. Redgun is handy in the meanwhile.
For daily carry I use a Shiworks Disciple, which is carried just in front of my IWB holster. The knife draws to point down, edge-in aka Pikal. (I recommend the Shivworks reverse edge methods DVD if you want more info).
Be nice to have a double edge but they can't be concealed in oregon.
Going for knife or gun would depend on circumstances... e.g. if I f%@# up and someone get behind me and goes for choke then the knife would work best... very crowded places with BG in close might require knife to.
If the BG gets grip on my strong hand while going for the holster then the knife draws with the left hand to forward grip edge up, and is nicely placed for a cut across the BG tendons to get him off the gun.
Obviously ideally I want to gain distance and go for the gun or OC.
Naturally all the above goes with good sprinkling of combatives.
An airsoft is next on my wish list. Redgun is handy in the meanwhile.
For daily carry I use a Shiworks Disciple, which is carried just in front of my IWB holster. The knife draws to point down, edge-in aka Pikal. (I recommend the Shivworks reverse edge methods DVD if you want more info).
Be nice to have a double edge but they can't be concealed in oregon.
Going for knife or gun would depend on circumstances... e.g. if I f%@# up and someone get behind me and goes for choke then the knife would work best... very crowded places with BG in close might require knife to.
If the BG gets grip on my strong hand while going for the holster then the knife draws with the left hand to forward grip edge up, and is nicely placed for a cut across the BG tendons to get him off the gun.
Obviously ideally I want to gain distance and go for the gun or OC.
Naturally all the above goes with good sprinkling of combatives.
A good way to start gun-vs-knife training is to vary the Tueler drill. Start the way Tueler devised it. Drawn knife versus holstered gun starting at 21 ft. Then, incrementally, move the ranges closer and closer until you're starting at 1 yd. You'll see the solution move from:
1) draw and shoot him before he gets here, to
2) move so you'll have time to draw and shoot, to
3) fight your way clear with your empty hand skills so that you can move and then finally draw and shoot.
At the closest range, be sure to practice some with the knife guy going for a low-tackle or wrestler's take-down. Lots of knifings are effected that way. The knifer puts his victim on the ground and then "pumps" him from a dominant position.
1) draw and shoot him before he gets here, to
2) move so you'll have time to draw and shoot, to
3) fight your way clear with your empty hand skills so that you can move and then finally draw and shoot.
At the closest range, be sure to practice some with the knife guy going for a low-tackle or wrestler's take-down. Lots of knifings are effected that way. The knifer puts his victim on the ground and then "pumps" him from a dominant position.
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"I think that the key is understanding that you will be cut, but unless something major is severed you can still stay in a fight and win it."
Same thing goes for a gunfight too. Just because you get shot doesn't mean the fight is over. On the contrary... it means you now have to start fighting.
Same thing goes for a gunfight too. Just because you get shot doesn't mean the fight is over. On the contrary... it means you now have to start fighting.
There's ways to play out that process in airsoft simulation. First, there's always a bad guy and always a good guy. The bad guy always loses and the good guy always wins. The bad guy can decide before he attacks:George Hill said:
(1) I'll go down the first time he hits me.
(2) I'll make him hit me 2-3-4-5 times before I stop
(3) I'll pretend I'm wearing a vest and require a head/throat/pelvis shot before I react.
(4) when he points a gun at me, I'll skid to a stop, put my hands up, and drop my weapon.
When the good guy get's hit or cut or shot, he stays in the fight.
If you have a third person, he can have a whistle that signifies a gun malfunction.
Now, the scenario is more than a shooting drill. It's a decision-process. :starwars:
Add to this some more variables.
(1) No-shoots wander in and out of the drill area.
(2) A second bad guy appears the instant the first shot is fired
(3) A second bad guy appears from another direction as the first bad guy drops.
(4) two or more bad guys start the fight.
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George Hill said:
Good point. The Israeli military does psych training with their troops to get them to understand that taking a hit doesn't mean death and to keep fighting to win the encounter.
It is my understanding that the percentage of people that die from handgun rounds is very low, but I'm not sure of the exact figures, but I believe it was in the single digits.
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