Defensive Carry banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
101 - 120 of 141 Posts
Mcgyver where did you come up with this?

It is disturbing to read the post by LEOs & Former LEOs, that portray a belief that if they MURDER you while you are defending your self against their illegal actions it is an accepted out come to MURDER you. This is the problem, too many Police depts have adopted a Military war like view of how to deal with innocent civilians that no longer includes To Protect & Serve. In this day & time with technology there is never any Excuse for Murdering an innocent family including their pets in their own home by mistake or other wise.

I have not read any post or stated myself that is accepted for anyone to come and murder you. The simple fact is if a legal warrant is served in a tactical manner on your home and you raise a firearm you will probably be shot. If it is a gang of thieves dressed as cops and you do nothing you may be injured or killed, it is a truly a no win situation either way. I do not know an answer for as long as there are people intent on committing crimes LE has a duty to react to it.
LE cannot water down tactics and simply knock on a door and wait for the guy to answer. The criminal element has dictated the LE response not the other way around.

You cannot stop doing something just because the criminal element copy it. In my home state they had the blue light rapist. He had a blue light on the dash and would make a traffic stop on a female and then sexually assault her. They could not stop making traffic stops because of it. They did implement procedures where lone females when in doubt would wait to stop at a public area without penalty but guess what the next thing you know you have some 6'4 guy who flees from an officer and when he was stopped his first words were "I wasn't fleeing I thought it was the blue light rapist and I was trying to get to a public place".
If your Assailant/s aren't punished for Murdering you in your home that in itself means it is accepted practice. It isn't a legal warrant just because people LIE or make a mistake when they swear their oath to a judge since we are talking about Innocent people defending against Professionally Trained Hit Teams of unknown origin at the time as far as the victims are concerned. Innocent Law abiding people never expect a TACTICAL HIT TEAM to enter their house or didn't used to. I would never try to hurt anyone that wasn't trying to hurt me first. You notice I said anyone not just LEOs because I value all innocent life.

If it was about safety with traffic stops we wouldn't even have unmarked cruisers but it is in reality more about $$$$s. As for stopping SORRY I am a 6' tall Martial Arts trained man but if I don't know the car pulling me over is a real LEO I will not just pull over either without verification. What I will do is let the Alleged LEO know I see them & hopefully they will understand since they don't even look like a LEO & they should know it since anyone can purchase Lights.

But the flip side of that is that to the LEOs serving the warrant there is no difference between you and the heavily armed drug dealer. They are not serving warrants to get their jollies. Most of the officers I know hate warrant service. Especially high risk warrants. They get paid just as much to write a handicap parking violation ticket as they do to kick a door in. They are much more likely to get killed or crippled on a warrant service than they are writing a parking ticket. Not much upside for them and a whole lot of potential downside.

Now unless you believe they are going around and hitting incorrect locations intentionally I assume you would agree that the officers that mistakenly hit a house are reasonable in their belief (based on the information they have at the time) that someone in that house is potentially dangerous or might be inclined to destroy evidence which is why they are forcing entry. They are there as a result of an
investigation and a judicial process that is conducted by people that do these things for a living.
So, I ask you, based on that reasonable belief if you present armed resistance to the officers serving a warrant at your house how should they react? And why is your belief that they are criminals coming through your door any more reasonable than their belief that you are a criminal?
Yes there is a BIG Difference innocent people never signed up for the danger & aren't paid for it either & in this scenario are the only innocent victims. As a LEO you knew the risk or should have before you took the oath same as Fireman, Soldiers etc...

Also in this scenario the only acceptable injury or loss of life is that of the intruder/s whoever it is IMO. Everyone keeps forgetting we are talking about when LEOs make a mistake & forcibly enter an innocent persons home with either LIEs, bad intel, incompetence etc etc... doesn't matter which cover up excuse is used. In this situation you are in all reality acting as a Hit Squad with full intent to do serious harm to the occupants if they don't just lay down even though you have startled them. Criminals are always prepared to deal with a possible attack innocent people aren't as prepared for possible good guys wanting to do them harm in their home.

I really hope I never have to deal with this scenario but I can say if I live there is an old saying “An EYE for an EYE”.

As for my belief you are a Criminal if you are trying to bust in, it isn't a belief it is a fact if I am a law abiding person in my home no matter the excuse you are a Criminal IMO whatever the outcome.

My suggestion to all is use technology against them the same way recorders are proving many times the good guys aren't really the good guys all the time. Our best chance is to have beefed up security in place to give us a fighting chance against both Good (Unfortunately) & Bad Guys & Im not just talking about weapons alone. As for this belief you will 100% lose based on training & numbers I have never been one to give up although I am a 100% Pessimist by nature so I always plan for the worst case Scenario.

In a Nut Shell no innocent victim shouldn't be subject to any type of charges if they committed no crime in the first place even if a LEO is injured or worse. In this scenario they should have 100% Immunity for defending their Family & Home. I also know this will never happen because it would mean admitting there is a problem with Abuse of Powers Regarding Warrants.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DontTreadOnI
Save
At what scale? Do we have a number yet of how many times the wrong house was hit?
I would bet money that no matter the number if the victims could talk they would say it was one too many in their case.
 
Save
I would bet money that no matter the number if the victims could talk they would say it was one too many in their case.
Yes but Chevy-SS spoke of this incredible scale like it was a big number. Out of one hundred twenty five million homes and over three hundred million population how many of anything in a single year does it take to be "this incredible scale"?
If there were an equal number of people killed in hunting accidents each year would you argue that hunting(but not trapping) should be banned because the founding fathers would not have have contemplated those deaths on this incredible scale?

I am not saying I think the loss of life on either side is acceptable. I say it sucks but that is life. Nobody ever said life is fair and we all know bad things happen to good people, that is part of why we carry right? I agree with you that the homeowner should not face charges if officers hit the wrong house and they resist. I just don't think too many people are going to survive the encounter to enjoy the not facing charges part.
 
Yes but Chevy-SS spoke of this incredible scale like it was a big number. Out of one hundred twenty five million homes and over three hundred million population how many of anything in a single year does it take to be "this incredible scale"?
If there were an equal number of people killed in hunting accidents each year would you argue that hunting(but not trapping) should be banned because the founding fathers would not have have contemplated those deaths on this incredible scale?

I am not saying I think the loss of life on either side is acceptable. I say it sucks but that is life. Nobody ever said life is fair and we all know bad things happen to good people, that is part of why we carry right? I agree with you that the homeowner should not face charges if officers hit the wrong house and they resist. I just don't think too many people are going to survive the encounter to enjoy the not facing charges part.
You are correct but LEOs shouldn't be the cause of bad things happening to good people.

An innocent person being killed in an unforeseeable accident is one thing but a innocent person being murdered in their house is another thing all together. I am & have always been law abiding but if me or my family including my pets was ever hurt or worse Im not sure I would or could ever accept a paid vacation as a fitting punishment.

I think I could keep my self from becoming a vigilante because unlike many I have a "Conscience" but I wouldn't rest until the person PAID in someway.
 
Save
As far as proof that evidence may be destroyed, that is pretty easy in some cases. How long do you think it would take to flush a pound of sugar down the sink or the toilet? So yes a forced entry type warrant service is going to be much more likely in a drug case than when looking for stolen car parts.
Since when is possession of a pound of sugar illegal? Did Michelle already get that one through another BO executive order? I know Congress did not pass it. Or are you in NYC and Bloomberg actually got this one through?
 
Save
Another point some folks dont get is this... When making an entry be it a controlled, or a dynamic... The suprise, speed and violence of action are actually designed to protect the subjects within the premis.
 
Since when is possession of a pound of sugar illegal? Did Michelle already get that one through another BO executive order? I know Congress did not pass it. Or are you in NYC and Bloomberg actually got this one through?
I went with a relatable. I figured most members here would have more experience with spilled sugar than heroin or cocaine.
But who knows, maybe it was a psychic freudian slip!
 
Save
No knock is wrong, wrong and wrong.

* Why not error on the safe side with going back to not having no knock warrants

* If the criminal evades the police with a search/arrest warrant there will always be another day to get them

* Under the "new" justice system in America many criminals walk before the fingerprint ink is try of they "plea bargain" the charges way down

* No knock warrants can/have been extremely hazardous to law abiding citizens -- that is why they are wrong (the fact that such incidents are not a common occurrence is an excuse and not a good enough reason not to do away with them)

Many foreign countries use what you can call no knock by busting into someone's residence for various reasons. If I am not mistaken didn't the British use that prior/during the revolution. And no, no knock in America is really no different in saying that when it happens we have legal recourse to deal with it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mcgyver210
Save
Well Crowman guess we will have to agree to disagree.

By your standards since the criminals are out before the ink dries and plea bargain anyway lets just save all the money and not arrest them to begin with. It's ok though the police will catch them another day maybe before they break into another house, rape another woman or kill some kid for his tennis shoes.

You just sit there on your couch, behind your locked door and all will be ok with the world.
 
Save
Well Crowman guess we will have to agree to disagree.

By your standards since the criminals are out before the ink dries and plea bargain anyway lets just save all the money and not arrest them to begin with. It's ok though the police will catch them another day maybe before they break into another house, rape another woman or kill some kid for his tennis shoes.

You just sit there on your couch, behind your locked door and all will be ok with the world.
Crowman is correct unfortunately.

By your standards it is OK for Law Enforcement to commit Sanctioned Extreme Violent Beatings/MURDERs as long as they are trying to catch a Bad Guy after which they can say OOPs we might have went too far but reast assured there will be an Internal Investigation that says the victim shouldn't have resisted the LEOs & they would only be traumatized instead of severely injured or DEAD.

What is worse seriously, being beaten or murdered is the same no matter which side does it? Only real difference is one side doesn't make as many excuses.

Home Invasions are a tool along with many others supposedly in the name of safety that are abused frequently especially with the militarization of local & state Law enforcement.
 
Save
Let me see if I can get this straight.

Before no knock was allowed criminals ran loose.

Now that there is no knock the criminals are still running loose.

I guess a good question is could the criminals that were apprehended with no knock still be apprehended if no knock did not exist. My guess is yes since law enforcement apprehended criminals for years without no knocks.

As far as drug dealers flushing the evidence I think the possible saving of even one law abiding citizen being beaten/killed accidental invasion by law enforcement due to wrong address far outweighs busting the dealers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chevy-SS
Save
As stated we will just have to agree to disagree. You say you are correct and I say you are not so it is simply tit for tat.

You continue to morph wrong addresses, home invasions and no knock warrants to satisfy your comments, so I won't confuse you with facts your mind is made up. No Knock warrants when correctly applied for and executed are a part of the LE and legal system and have been and will be around for a long time to come and I doubt seriously if either one of your opinions will change that so continue to rant and rave about how wrong they are and just think while you are posting somewhere a No Knock warrant is being served right now.

Have a wonderful day
 
  • Like
Reactions: Secret Spuk
Save
No Knock warrants ... are a part of the LE and legal system and have been and will be around for a long time to come and I doubt seriously if either one of your opinions will change that
This is correct. It will take an event like a NKR on a member of Congress (bad address) where he and his family are pulled out on the lawn and held at gunpoint while their house is searched. The cop that is holding them gets an itchy finger and blows the head off the Congressman's daughter. The internal investigation will exonerate the cop. This type of event (which has happened, just not to a Congressman) is what it will take to restore the 4A.
 
Save
Well ks I guess the scenario could happen. Lets see member of congress, wrong address, ND kills a child I am sure someone can figure the statistics on that there must be a formula somewhere. Until then I guess we have to live with the laws that are in place.
 
Save
Yes but Chevy-SS spoke of this incredible scale like it was a big number. Out of one hundred twenty five million homes and over three hundred million population how many of anything in a single year does it take to be "this incredible scale"? .....

By "incredible scale" I am referring to the numbers of annual raids, reported to be 70,000 to 80,000. If that's not an "incredible" number, then what is?

-
 
Save
........ Until then I guess we have to live with the laws that are in place.

We may have to "live with the laws that are in place" temporarily, but once enough people (like many on this forum) get thoroughly PO'd and involved, then our leaders will (hopefully) start to pay attention.
 
Save
Chevy if the laws need to be changed then hopefully, someday, maybe, somewhere a politician will take notice but he would have to challenge and rewrite laws that have been on the books for decades and either way it would end up being political suicide which he probably would not want to do.

I honestly do not know what it would take for "our leaders" to take notice. If they have not seen anything wrong with it by now I really don't think they will.
 
Save
By "incredible scale" I am referring to the numbers of annual raids, reported to be 70,000 to 80,000. If that's not an "incredible" number, then what is?

-
To put it in perspective in 1780 the population of the United States was 2.78 million. Adjusted for population,(scale) that would be a total of about two warrants per day being served in all of the thirteen states. Do you really think the founding fathers would have objected to that?
 
Save
To put it in perspective in 1780 the population of the United States was 2.78 million. Adjusted for population,(scale) that would be a total of about two warrants per day being served in all of the thirteen states. Do you really think the founding fathers would have objected to that?
You don't get it. The numbers aren't important. The principle is.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chevy-SS
Save
Well ks I guess the scenario could happen. Lets see member of congress, wrong address, ND kills a child I am sure someone can figure the statistics on that there must be a formula somewhere. Until then I guess we have to live with the laws that are in place.
Not that I think this is a better alternative but what if the scenario/statistic was only LEOs dieing because citizens killed them in self defense successfully by being better prepared for any invasion by anyone. This sounds like a far fetched fantasy since so many feel you can't win against an Out of Control Government that could care less about the rights granted by the forefathers. History of this country & others tells a story that you can only push people that are not violent so far then there will be a consequence to pay by the oppressors.

History is starting to repeat itself again. Mark my words if it doesn't change it will be the people against the Government & its agents. Other countries have been fighting their Governments for many years for less.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Crowman
Save
101 - 120 of 141 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.