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Discussion Starter · #1 ·

As difficult as this scenario is, I cannot fault the officer for his actions. He sees a guy holding an AR at an active killer event, and responds appropriately.

"Hurley fatally shot the gunman, Ronald Troyke, 59, with his own handgun after Troyke ambushed and killed Arvada Police Officer Gordon Beesley with a shotgun, officials have said. Troyke had also retrieved an AR-15 rifle from a truck. Hurley had apparently picked up the rifle and was holding it when he was shot, authorities said."

It has been said before and will be said again, do NOT have a gun in your hand when the police arrive, and they will be arriving sooner than you might realize. "Hands up, don't shoot!", while based on a false narrative, still has merit when the cops roll up.
 

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So the shooter had a handgun and a rifle. Hurley shot the gunman and then picked up the gunman's rifle instead of moving the weapons away from the gunman? Ouch. He didn't hear the police sirens approaching? Was the "suspected shooter" still breathing? Lots of questions. Lots of lessons.

Yea, don't be holding a firearm when the police arrive. Seems to me if the perp is down, move any weapons away from the perp. Avoid holding a firearm as soon as the area is cleared. But then again, what about accomplices? A few months ago there was a post about a GGWAG taking aim at a mass shooter who was shot in the back by the shooter's female accomplice. Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. Tough decisions. And unfortunately, history shows that less than 1 in ten shootings have a GGWAG around. And shooters avoid open, unposted locations for just that reason. Instead they chose active shooter magnets, aka, gun-free zones, so police are not used to having heros with guns in a mass shooting situation.
 

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Just to amplify this idea. I attended an active shooter presentation put on by my local PD. It was based on a national presentation that many departments are using. They are advising cops to go in ready to shoot as soon as they show up on scene and not wait for backup. That includes plainclothes and off duty. It also advises them to engage armed targets without announcement.

So per the comment above, there may be no sirens, uniforms or verbal warnings before a cop shoots a defender and depending on the venue, there may be a cop already onsite.

What I can't figure out is how they are going to keep from cops shooting plainclothes cops in these situations.
 

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Just to amplify this idea. I attended an active shooter presentation put on by my local PD. It was based on a national presentation that many departments are using. They are advising cops to go in ready to shoot as soon as they show up on scene and not wait for backup. That includes plainclothes and off duty. It also advises them to engage armed targets without announcement.

So per the comment above, there may be no sirens, uniforms or verbal warnings before a cop shoots a defender and depending on the venue, there may be a cop already onsite.

What I can't figure out is how they are going to keep from cops shooting plainclothes cops in these situations.
Well, a good guess would be that they're not. And they probably won't even think about changing the policy until it happens quite a few times.
 

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I blame two things in this case:

1. A split-second extremely poor decision by Mr. Hurley, which probably seemed like a good idea at the time- maybe getting the rifle away from the shooter, clearing/making it safe, or securing it's firepower in case of additional shooters (with his own carry gun empty or depleted). It is also possible that he could have also been shot for just holstering in his weapon, see #2.

2. A systemic LE training failure that does not acknowledge the potential presence of armed citizens or off-duty LE in a immediate post-active shooting scenario. These individuals will more than likely be hearing impaired and tunnel visioned, so a "Drop the gun, [radio edit]!!!!" followed by immediate engaging fire has promoted tragedy on more than just a single occasion. We have flopped from the Columbine "wait for SWAT" protocol to the "shoot the first guy you see with a gun" protocol- neither of which is correct. Rapid response, WITH ACTIVE ASSESSMENT of what is occurring RIGHT NOW, is needed. Mr. Hurley was not firing at anybody when he shot, but was "manipulating" his pistol (reholstering) and the shooter's rifle. The key here is that these officers are responding to a shooting event, not getting a gun pulled on them in a traffic stop, so there should be at least a minimal timeframe to process the situation beyond "see gun, bang".

The lessons for armed civilians include:

CONCEAL your weapon immediately after you stop shooting it.

DO NOT "cover" a wounded shooter, or one that has taken a cover/concealment position, with your exposed weapon.

DO NOT pick-up any weapons on the scene. Kicking one away from a wounded shooter MIGHT be necessary, but don't put it in your hands.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I blame two things in this case:

1. A split-second extremely poor decision by Mr. Hurley, which probably seemed like a good idea at the time- maybe getting the rifle away from the shooter, clearing/making it safe, or securing it's firepower in case of additional shooters (with his own carry gun empty or depleted). There is also possible that he could have also been shot for just holstering in his weapon, see #2.

2. A systemic LE training failure that does not acknowledge the potential presence of armed citizens or off-duty LE in a immediate post-active shooting scenario. These individuals will more than likely be hearing impaired and tunnel visioned, so a "Drop the gun, [radio edit]!!!!" followed by immediate engaging fire has promoted tragedy on more than just a single occasion. We have flopped from the Columbine "wait for SWAT" protocol to the "shoot the first guy you see with a gun" protocol- neither of which is correct. Rapid response, WITH ACTIVE ASSESSMENT of what is occurring RIGHT NOW, is needed. Mr. Hurley was not firing at anybody when he shot, but was "manipulating" his pistol (reholstering) and the shooter's rifle. The key here is that these officers are responding to a shooting event, not getting a gun pulled on them in a traffic stop, so there should be at least a minimal timeframe to process the situation beyond "see gun, bang".

The lessons for armed civilians include:

CONCEAL your weapon immediately after you stop shooting it.

DO NOT "cover" a wounded shooter, or one that has taken cover/concealment position, with your exposed weapon.

DO NOT pick-up any weapons on the scene. Kicking one away from a wounded shooter MIGHT be necessary, but don't put it in your hands.
Plenty of training failures to go around on this one, but again, more on the hero's end of the log than on the responding cop who shot him. As far as I could tell, the cop did the active assessment and immediately took the shot. It could just as easily gone the other way, with the cop hesitating for a fraction of a second and catching a round for his failure to follow active shooter protocol. The action beats reaction equation is definitely in play here.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
There is only one safe position to be in when the cops roll up, which involves knees and toes touching pavement and empty hands raised as high in the air as they will go. Anything less is a whole bunch less.
 

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I am not getting on my knees...but showing empty hands and a calm, clear-spoken demeanor...exactly. All this on your knees-on your face stuff is a result of TV...we never did it...every arrest I ever made, the man was on his feet...it wasn't taught back then...wasn't necessary. Hands on the wall, feet back and spread 'em...gave you all the control necessary.

The one handgun I've handled in a CA event a few years back, I carried outside the place to the 3 officers who responded held up by the barrel, and asked them where they wanted me to put it. One said on the seat of my car, there...and I told him his arrest was right there and he stepped in and cuffed him. Most street cops can smell the elements of a situation quickly and get a reading on what's going on. Way too much drama these days...which promotes a shoot where it might not have been necessary had they slowed down and handled it differently. I know we're talking a generation gap...but people haven't changed that much.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I am not getting on my knees...but showing empty hands and a calm, clear-spoken demeanor...exactly. All this on your knees-on your face stuff is a result of TV...we never did it...every arrest I ever made, the man was on his feet...it wasn't taught back then...wasn't necessary. Hands on the wall, feet back and spread 'em...gave you all the control necessary.
I'm more concerned about not getting shot than what's on TV. I'm not sure calm and clear-spoken are in the cards during and immediately after a mass-shooting event. I do know that I can probably follow a rehearsed, simple thought-out script in all the excitement.
 

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Empty hands are critical, and should be sufficient to keep you from being shot...long as you don't have a sudden urge to scratch your belly button.

The same mentality we've endured for decades in 911 operators' telling us not to shoot 'em or put your gun away...blanket statements like if they have a gun when you show up, shoot 'em are nothing but trouble for all who listen. Only the person in the situation, cop or citizen will have to live with the result...only he, guided by the law, should decide when and if to shoot or not. Not a time for pat, canned policy statements. Been in several situations as a cop where I could have shot legally...but it wasn't necessary, and I handled it differently.
 

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Wow. Certainly never served in any Leo capacity, let alone experienced any sort of "active shooter" scenario. But what a crappy situation for all involved. I'm glad the officer isn't being charged, but he will likely have this on his mind next time he rolls up to the next call. Will this change his mind set? Will it interfere with how he is able to do his job? Will he need counseling? After all he did take an innocent life. Like I said, sucks......
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Empty hands are critical, and should be sufficient to keep you from being shot...long as you don't have a sudden urge to scratch your belly button.

The same mentality we've endured for decades in 911 operators' telling us not to shoot 'em or put your gun away...blanket statements like if they have a gun when you show up, shoot 'em are nothing but trouble for all who listen. Only the person in the situation, cop or citizen will have to live with the result...only he, guided by the law, should decide when and if to shoot or not. Not a time for pat, canned policy statements. Been in several situations as a cop where I could have shot legally...but it wasn't necessary, and I handled it differently.
As I preach what I practice, it is with the understanding that the responding cop might well suffer from the mentality of which you speak. I'm not concerned with being right nearly as much as I am concerned about not winding up needlessly dead, whether at the hands of a lunatic or a skittish first responder.
 

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There is only one safe position to be in when the cops roll up, which involves knees and toes touching pavement and empty hands raised as high in the air as they will go. Anything less is a whole bunch less.
The really safe position is to have already worked your way out to the parking lot while the shooting is going on. Everyone has to make their own personal decision on whether to engage or not. But if your objective is to be safe, that is the safest.
 

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So I guess ID’ing targets is a standard that only applies to non LEO’s despite always hearing from the left that LEO’s are the highly trained ones.
 

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I have to wonder if the situation had been reversed and a citizen had accidentally killed a LEO, if they still would not have charged the citizen...
 

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So I guess ID’ing targets is a standard that only applies to non LEO’s despite always hearing from the left that LEO’s are the highly trained ones.
You are responding to a call of an active shooter… description is male with a long gun.

You arrive, and see a male with a long gun.

If you want to argue about fog of war, probably need to know more about the situation than just news articles. Maybe it is more people thinking L/E are psychics, but we really don’t know what we don’t know.

Hurley definitely did a heroic act. But he just shot someone. Read books on how people in traumatic situations react, especially in the time after fight/flight. Limited hearing? Tunnel vision? Under/overestimating distance? Time slowing down/speeding up?

If Hurley was affected by one or multiple of those, the officer could have easily told him to drop it and received non-compliance. Are we still going to say anyone did wrong?

It’s very easy to sit back and judge any of the subjects related to this situation, which happened more than four months ago. Going through that situation… a little more difficult.

In the end, it was a tragic situation. Only positive that can be pulled is to learn from it… whether you are off-duty L/E, civilian, or on-duty L/E. It’s rare to learn from perfect scenarios… sad to say, but it is true.
 

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If police have gone from "wait for SWAT" to "shoot anyone not wearing a police uniform who is holding a gun" then I, for one, will NOT get involved in a mass shooting except to save myself and my family.

What the heck ever happened to IDENTIFY YOUR TARGET?

Would hate to be an off duty or plain clothes detective with this mentality. No siree.
 

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You are responding to a call of an active shooter… description is male with a long gun.

You arrive, and see a male with a long gun.

If you want to argue about fog of war, probably need to know more about the situation than just news articles. Maybe it is more people thinking L/E are psychics, but we really don’t know what we don’t know.

Hurley definitely did a heroic act. But he just shot someone. Read books on how people in traumatic situations react, especially in the time after fight/flight. Limited hearing? Tunnel vision? Under/overestimating distance? Time slowing down/speeding up?

If Hurley was affected by one or multiple of those, the officer could have easily told him to drop it and received non-compliance. Are we still going to say anyone did wrong?

It’s very easy to sit back and judge any of the subjects related to this situation, which happened more than four months ago. Going through that situation… a little more difficult.

In the end, it was a tragic situation. Only positive that can be pulled is to learn from it… whether you are off-duty L/E, civilian, or on-duty L/E. It’s rare to learn from perfect scenarios… sad to say, but it is true.
Yeah. I get that. bottom line is that he shot a good guy, and if he were a non LEO he would have been charged. People expect “poorly trained” concealed carriers to have high functioning brains that will account for all possibilities by LE, but when it’s a “highly trained” LEO, well as WaPo says “lower your expectations”.
 
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