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There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns — the ones we don't know we don't know. -- Donald Rumsfeld
 

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This has some value in prioritizing the order of skills to be trained but I dont agree with this
the trainee should not focus so much on a varied training. John pointed out that 80% is a “B”, and that for most, having a “B” grade in gunfighting is a practical “passing score”.
You shouldn't train to a certain point, in this example functional but rather low, and then consider yourself "trained" and in need of "no further" as is implied. It might just be that 20% that you dont know gets you killed. It kind of reminds me of how a PD can have you qualify with 50 rounds a year and then call you "qualified". Well no you really aren't, as has been proven on many sad occasions. I guess its in conflict with my own philosophy of never stop training and never stop adding skills to your set. For instance I'm the only one I know on my Dept. that carried on both sides, which I do because I can shoot with both hands, either one handed or two handed. And I can draw and shoot the 2nd faster then I can reload the 1st ; As well if a BG is going for one I'm going to shoot him with the other. You dont know how many times Ive had to listen to "I dont want to have to protect more then one gun" from people who cant understand the concept of surviving BECAUSE your able to shoot him with a 2nd on your other side. On Officer Down I can point to 1/2 dozen guys I knew who probably would have survived had they had this skill.

And for reloads? "Reloading" isn't the only reason you might have to reload. Anyway I can go on and on but the real basic thing I want to say is a student should be a student for life and should be constantly looking for trainers and regimes that not only move them up to the next level but leave them wanting to move up even more.

So yes this philosophy appears to be a good starting point "tho not all of it" for a beginner but it certainly isn't a good ending point. Most videos of gunfights leave a lot to be desired skill wise and shouldn't be used as an example of good skills as much as poor. Also, learning how to move and shoot, in my opinion, is very, very important and no practical pistol course should be without it. Just being able to create distance as you draw and shoot very well might save your life.
 

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That sounds like an ignorant rendition of the Dunning-Krueger effect.
I try to put things in terms my intended audience will understand...
 
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I like that he has devoted time to watching videos and learning from them. However, has he ever been in a fight, or a fight with a gun. Some of the conclusions are spot on, others not so much....
 

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I like that he has devoted time to watching videos and learning from them. However, has he ever been in a fight, or a fight with a gun. Some of the conclusions are spot on, others not so much....
There's surely a lot to be gleaned from analyzing that many violent encounters, I would say he's got a unique perspective in that regard as I'm not aware of anyone who has done the same, at least not to that degree. Tom Givens as well has similar takeaways based on interviews of students of his who HAVE gotten into violent encounters where gunfire was exchanged. I wouldn't say that one need to have gotten into a gunfight to attain the knowledge that would help them prevail in a gunfight.

I'd be genuinely interested to hear what points you disagree with him on.
 

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FWIW, I was lost after the wisdom on page two about "if you're in lighting that is good enough to see your opponent and what is in his hands, then you don't need night sights to acquire a sight picture, therefore if it's too dark to see your sights, it's too dark to know if there is a threat in front of you or not." I've done enough low light shooting to know that I want any, and every advantage, I can get. Night sights aren't the be all end all of problem solvers, but they definitely have their place and can, without question (IMO), be an aid in lower light environments.
Certainly anything that helps you get a better sight picture is worthwhile, and I'd fully agree with you that any advantage I can take, I will. I have tritium sights on my carry guns, however, I do believe there's a misconception that putting night sights on your gun suddenly means you're all set for shooting in the dark. Which is obviously not the case.

Generally speaking, though, he's not wrong. Night sights don't in fact help you see or identify your target, and if you can do those two things, your sights will be visible as well. Do they help? Sure. But, I think generally speaking night sights are given more importance than they're due. Again, this coming from someone who puts at least a tritium front sight on any of my defensive firearms.
 

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There's certainly a lot to be gleaned from analyzing that many violent encounters, I would say he's got a unique perspective in that regard as I'm not aware of anyone who has done the same, at least not to that degree. Tom Givens as well has similar takeaways based on interviews of students of his who HAVE gotten into violent encounters where gunfire was exchanged. I wouldn't say that one need to have gotten into a gunfight to attain the knowledge that would help them prevail in a gunfight.

I'd be genuinely interested to hear what points you disagree with him on.
I generally disagree with the assertion that anything he hasn't seen whilst watching videos doesn't need to be learned. I went ahead and checked out the recommendations for "minimum standards" linked in the article here: [Minimum Standards] Shooting Ed Head?s CHL practice drill ? Notes from KR
and demoed in the video here
I see techniques advocated which slow the draw down and place the gun at risk in close quarters fighting. An approach that insists on getting behind the sights at full extension for a target within arm's reach (within two seconds, no less) is teaching the student how to lose a gun and the gunfight. Honest question--why the heck would anyone in good conscience advocate beginning a draw at point blank range from the surrender position?
 

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My take away is not to drop the things that don't seem to occur often but, to manage my training time and dollars proportionally to what is more likely to happen. I think that is only smart. I will spend less time training for the North Korean paratroopers and more time on the parking lot robbery scenario. Of course with todays atmosphere I could have that completely backwards.
My biggest training blunder in the time I have carried a firearm is not investing in a shot timer. I have a phone app now but, I am stopping at Cabela's
on the way home to purchase a real one. It has been an eye opener for me and I learned I was not "fast enough".

So far for me the biggest benefit of "night sights" is finding the gun on the nightstand. Maybe I should switch to a Glo grip? A pink one.
 

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You haven't seen my car. :embarassed:
The average carjacker wouldn't know how to drive the stick shift in my 10 year old F-150. And with manual locks, I'd be hard pressed to open the passenger door for him anyways. I guess he could jump in the bed and wave his gun at me. In which case, he might be surprised to find out I do have power brakes...
 

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The average carjacker wouldn't know how to drive the stick shift in my 10 year old F-150. And with manual locks, I'd be hard pressed to open the passenger door for him anyways. I guess he could jump in the bed and wave his gun at me. In which case, he might be surprised to find out I do have power brakes...
Yeah but, power brakes apparently aren't necessarily a substitute for learning to shoot with your left hand over your right shoulder, preferably implemented via a well practiced, modified Center Axis Relock technique... :blink:
 
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There's surely a lot to be gleaned from analyzing that many violent encounters, I would say he's got a unique perspective in that regard as I'm not aware of anyone who has done the same, at least not to that degree. Tom Givens as well has similar takeaways based on interviews of students of his who HAVE gotten into violent encounters where gunfire was exchanged. I wouldn't say that one need to have gotten into a gunfight to attain the knowledge that would help them prevail in a gunfight.

I'd be genuinely interested to hear what points you disagree with him on.
He mentions the 80/20. In which he states that only 20 percent of skills taught were used. For me, I am not planning on a typical fight. That is why I made the statement I made in my prior post. Not every fight will be the same, or typical. He would know this if he had been in a fight. IMO it leads the reader into a false sense of security. I am not saying this article doesnt help, but there is much more to it....
 

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I generally disagree with the assertion that anything he hasn't seen whilst watching videos doesn't need to be learned.
To be fair, that's not something he said or at least, I didn't see it. Again, I think it's just trying to get people to think more critically about what they practice and why. For what it's worth, I consider 12,000 to be a pretty good sample size. For example, when you then look at what he cited in re: reloading in the middle of a fight: statistically, it just doesn't happen, 8 out of 12,000? That's insignificant. However, as someone pointed out earlier, reloading isn't only done when the gun runs dry, it might be necessary due to a malfunction, etc. I don't think anyone would ever say you don't need to work emergency or slide lock reloads, but it's worth noting their rare necessity that's all.

I see techniques advocated which slow the draw down and place the gun at risk in close quarters fighting ... teaching the student how to lose a gun and the gunfight.
Indeed, there's more than one way to solve that problem as there are no absolutes. Though, I would be interested to know how many bad actors, if any in the 12,000 or elsewhere in life have performed a gun disarm successfully. My guess would be not many.
 

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IMO it leads the reader into a false sense of security. I am not saying this article doesnt help, but there is much more to it....
I agree, and I don't mean to sound as if I'm implying that anyone should take what he and he alone has learned, make that their training doctrine and go forth in the world. However, 12,000 incidents distilled into their common traits is valuable information in my opinion, that's all. As well, 12,000 incidents worth of data (plus what Tom Givens has found: https://americanhandgunner.com/when-citizens-fight-back/) might be good enough to get a rough idea, if we're sticking with the 80/20 principle, of what that 80% tends to look like. That's not to say you shouldn't train for the other 20% at all.
 

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Indeed, there's more than one way to solve that problem as there are no absolutes. Though, I would be interested to know how many bad actors, if any in the 12,000 or elsewhere in life have performed a gun disarm successfully. My guess would be not many.
One in which I knew the victim personally. No video on it, tho...
 
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I wonder how many shooters have never even practiced drawing from their method of carry? Most ranges dont allow drawing and firing and most shooters don't practice draw and dry fire at home. They might find some ugly surprises if they started trying to. I know I have practiced cross draw from shoulder and man its pretty slow. I still occasionally use my shoulder holsters but I have no illusions of how it will slow me down. I live in a fairly safe area so I might carry one way around the house that I'd never consider going into town. But whatever way I carry I know what I'm in for cause Ive practiced the draw.

One way Ive totally quit is ankle rigs. I'd rather have a pocket rig.
 

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I generally disagree with the assertion that anything he hasn't seen whilst watching videos doesn't need to be learned. I went ahead and checked out the recommendations for "minimum standards" linked in the article here: [Minimum Standards] Shooting Ed Head?s CHL practice drill ? Notes from KR
and demoed in the video here
I see techniques advocated which slow the draw down and place the gun at risk in close quarters fighting. An approach that insists on getting behind the sights at full extension for a target within arm's reach (within two seconds, no less) is teaching the student how to lose a gun and the gunfight. Honest question--why the heck would anyone in good conscience advocate beginning a draw at point blank range from the surrender position?
ugh
 

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I wonder how many shooters have never even practiced drawing from their method of carry? Most ranges dont allow drawing and firing and most shooters don't practice draw and dry fire at home. They might find some ugly surprises if they started trying to. I know I have practiced cross draw from shoulder and man its pretty slow. I still occasionally use my shoulder holsters but I have no illusions of how it will slow me down. I live in a fairly safe area so I might carry one way around the house that I'd never consider going into town. But whatever way I carry I know what I'm in for cause Ive practiced the draw.

One way Ive totally quit is ankle rigs. I'd rather have a pocket rig.
I carry in a shoulder rig alot. But I also carry a 2nd smaller gun to make up for the shorcomings of the shoulder rig if need be.
 

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One thing about self awareness is that if you are in an area a lot where you have a lot of threats you are going to be tuning in to threats a lot more than when you have been in an area where there has been very little danger for a long time. The day that I got caught concentrating on some hardware in a store and the guy walked up on me- before I noticed him- I had been living where there was very little threat. I knew that I was going into a higher threat area but I was no longer in the habit of being aware of my surroundings as much. I let my guard down and the guy cost me a $15 dollar lesson. But it may have been a very valuable lesson to me. I think that it showed me how easy it is to relax if you don't feel threatened for a while and how important it is to be more careful.
 

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My sentiments exactly :rolleyes:

Very interesting discussion. Most of the students would have two in Karl before he got the gun to eye level. Wonder how accurate he'd be then? :wink:
 
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