Defensive Carry banner

1 - 20 of 44 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
240 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
This post is to promote a debate. I have combat performance tuned a snub nosed 460 S&W magnum shown below. I have also posted Jerry Miculek showing the results results of ballistic gelatin using the 200 grain hornady round. The debate is why not this for concealed carry. Please review the results of Jerry's video on the 200 grain hornady. Please incorporate into the debate that the 460 snubnose I have combat performance tuned as an experiment has a 2.5 inch barrel (3 inch measured hat the forcing cone). I will also state that this combination with this revolver can be rapid fired with high accuracy and speed. Given the wound expansion channel in Jerry's ballistic gelatin (note the temporary and permanent channel in the gelatin), please comment and critique. Again we are only reviewing this for SD using the 200 grain ballistic tip hornady. Please review the first part of Jerry's video before commenting and the shortened barrel of the the snub 460 below. Let's have some fun here and open our minds a bit and please, all comments welcome. Please use some imagination here on feasibility and limitations. Note that Jerry's video shows the Hornady 200 ballistic tip does not fully penetrate the ballistic gelatin in the video (this discussion does not relate to the over penetration of the cast round he uses later in the video). Consider that I have combat performance tuned this snub for speed as an experiment. I post this to open up the forum to new ideas that are not necessarily the norm and to start debate. Also note that speed loader or moon clips are available for this revolver (can not do both, one or the other). If there is enough interest here I will call Jerry Miculek (I have his personal cell phone number) and see if he will do a video on shooting this in a video DA with combat draw cycle. "Get Some!!"






 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,027 Posts
Sorry but I guess I'm ether lacking imagination or just don't care what jerry might be able to do with a 460 shorty !!
Slap a 4 to 5" barrel on it and a 400gr mild load in a cross chest rig and it would make a good back up in grizzly country . How about a short video of what you consider fast and accurate drawn from you holster !
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,086 Posts
Most people would find it impractical for EDC unless they live in bear country, as a combat performance tuned 460 snub is on the large and heavy side. A snub 629 would serve better in an anti humanoid role.

Can Jerry do it? We already know what he can do.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
8,287 Posts
Interesting - at just after 3:00, the collapsing cavity "flashes." Same thing happens in the second shot as well, about 4:20. Curious if that is due to the increased temperature from a rapid compression.

As for the gun - it's a lot of gun to carry and would be difficult to conceal. How many ounces fully loaded? How does your side feel after carrying it 12 hours?

It's a gun I would not carry due to its size and weight, unless I was in bear country.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
240 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
This is all good feedback and is exactly the type of perspectives I was hoping to receive. Thanks again for indulging me on this. Here are some negatives of my own:

1) Cylinder rotating torque. In high speed DA something I did not expect was the effect of the cyinder torque on shooting. Its substantal and affects point of impact but can be accounted for with practice.

2) Grip wear - The rubber grips tear at the top of the grip after about 50 rounds of high speed DA shooting. At first I thought I had gotten a bad set so I ordered six from S&W to test but they do tear. I protected my shooting hand by wearing two pair of shooting gloves. A thin barretta shooting glove and a heavy leather half glove on top (the type that motorcycle riders wear).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,014 Posts
Sorry but, terrible bear load as a 200 grain 460 has about 60% the sectional density of a 200 grain 357 magnum and will have really poor penetration on a heavy hide and bone bear. Large diameter bullets need a very heavy grain to get the penetration needed for bear, think 300 grain 44, or 200 grain 357 and they all need to have hardcast flat nosed bullets to be effective. Personal defense of course would be fine but, why have that kind of recoil when you don't "need" it?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,140 Posts
This post is to promote a debate. I have combat performance tuned a snub nosed 460 S&W magnum shown below. I have also posted Jerry Miculek showing the results results of ballistic gelatin using the 200 grain hornady round.
Velocity was about 2300 FPS with the 8 3/8" BBL? That is very impressive as wast the damage and reaction of the Gel block. My first concern, shortening the barrel will, especially with that cartrige significantly lower the velocity to what? If I had to guess I would say 1500 fps or maybe less.

The debate is why not this for concealed carry.
How much does that weigh? ( 72.2 oz with the 8 3/8" BBL) Maybe 2 times what a S&W model 69 does? (Almost) It is as physically large as a Desert Eagle and the recoil impulse alone is going to beyond the ability of the vast majority of shooters to cope with.

Please incorporate into the debate that the 460 snubnose I have combat performance tuned as an experiment has a 2.5 inch barrel (3 inch measured hat the forcing cone). I will also state that this combination with this revolver can be rapid fired with high accuracy and speed.
What is your definition of speed? And by whom? Jerry?

Given the wound expansion channel in Jerry's ballistic gelatin (note the temporary and permanent channel in the gelatin), please comment and critique.
That was with a LONG barrel, not the snubby, there will be a significant difference.

Again we are only reviewing this for SD using the 200 grain ballistic tip hornady.
If you can maintain enough velocity for the bullet to perform, is that bullet designed for the 460, 454 or 45 colt?

Let's have some fun here and open our minds a bit and please, all comments welcome. Please use some imagination here on feasibility and limitations.
I have 4 - 44 magnums that I shoot on a regular basis, have killed quite a few deer with 44's. I have one, S&W Model 69 that I carry semi frequently. I feel it is the perfect carry revolver for me @ 37.4 OZ. Recoil is fairly mid for a 44 magnum. The 460 weighs almost exactly twice what an L frame does, I am going to submit that it is to heavy and bulky to use as a CCW pistol by 99% of the population. For Andre the Giant or my Delta force buddy who is 6'8" and 350 lbs it may be the perfect choice. I have people tell me all the time that even the 44 magnum is too much gun. I agree with that assessment to a point, that most shooters can not control even the 44 magnum.

Consider that I have combat performance tuned this snub for speed as an experiment. I post this to open up the forum to new ideas that are not necessarily the norm and to start debate. Also note that speed loader or moon clips are available for this revolver (can not do both, one or the other).
Post some video of you shooting and performing a combat reload for discussion. Some things do not become apparent until you put them into action. For example, I discovered that 44 magnum, moon clips, rubber grips and -30 are not a good mixture. As a master shooter that should be a simple thing. Why cant you use clips and speedloaders? I can with my 69 Smith after TKC customs cut it for clips. If this is a one or the other proposition I say speedloaders without reservation because clips are a PITA with the 44 magnum, the longer 460 would only aggravate the problem and then it depends on whether or not the brass you have like the clips.

If there is enough interest here I will call Jerry Miculek (I have his personal cell phone number) and see if he will do a video on shooting this in a video DA with combat draw cycle. "Get Some!!"
Anyone who calls Clark Custom Guns can get his number. You should really stop name dropping, it does not impress people here. We all know what Jerry can do, what he can do with a pistol is irrelevant to use mortals. What can you do?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,140 Posts
This is all good feedback and is exactly the type of perspectives I was hoping to receive. Thanks again for indulging me on this. Here are some negatives of my own:

1) Cylinder rotating torque. In high speed DA something I did not expect was the effect of the cyinder torque on shooting. Its substantal and affects point of impact but can be accounted for with practice.

2) Grip wear - The rubber grips tear at the top of the grip after about 50 rounds of high speed DA shooting. At first I thought I had gotten a bad set so I ordered six from S&W to test but they do tear. I protected my shooting hand by wearing two pair of shooting gloves. A thin barretta shooting glove and a heavy leather half glove on top (the type that motorcycle riders wear).
Will you be wearing those gloves as you CCW the pistol?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
240 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
I forgot to mention that fast DA shooting this resulted in the firing pin spring flatrening (completely crushed and flattened almost paper thin).

I first thought there was a defect so I changed and replaced the spring only to have it flattened again after about 15 rounds of DA rapid fire.

I then changed the firing pin to a lighter Apex competion firing pin (with stock spring) but spring flattened again. There could be a problem with the firing pin channel. I did a initial check for smoothness with a dental pick tool and the firing pin channel channel was a little rough. I have to check into this further.

I can not shoot video of this right now due to logistics.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
240 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
This post is to promote a debate. I have combat performance tuned a snub nosed 460 S&W magnum shown below. I have also posted Jerry Miculek showing the results results of ballistic gelatin using the 200 grain hornady round.
Velocity was about 2300 FPS with the 8 3/8" BBL? That is very impressive as wast the damage and reaction of the Gel block. My first concern, shortening the barrel will, especially with that cartrige significantly lower the velocity to what? If I had to guess I would say 1500 fps or maybe less.

The debate is why not this for concealed carry.
How much does that weigh? ( 72.2 oz with the 8 3/8" BBL) Maybe 2 times what a S&W model 69 does? (Almost) It is as physically large as a Desert Eagle and the recoil impulse alone is going to beyond the ability of the vast majority of shooters to cope with.

Please incorporate into the debate that the 460 snubnose I have combat performance tuned as an experiment has a 2.5 inch barrel (3 inch measured hat the forcing cone). I will also state that this combination with this revolver can be rapid fired with high accuracy and speed.
What is your definition of speed? And by whom? Jerry?

Given the wound expansion channel in Jerry's ballistic gelatin (note the temporary and permanent channel in the gelatin), please comment and critique.
That was with a LONG barrel, not the snubby, there will be a significant difference.

Again we are only reviewing this for SD using the 200 grain ballistic tip hornady.
If you can maintain enough velocity for the bullet to perform, is that bullet designed for the 460, 454 or 45 colt?

Let's have some fun here and open our minds a bit and please, all comments welcome. Please use some imagination here on feasibility and limitations.
I have 4 - 44 magnums that I shoot on a regular basis, have killed quite a few deer with 44's. I have one, S&W Model 69 that I carry semi frequently. I feel it is the perfect carry revolver for me @ 37.4 OZ. Recoil is fairly mid for a 44 magnum. The 460 weighs almost exactly twice what an L frame does, I am going to submit that it is to heavy and bulky to use as a CCW pistol by 99% of the population. For Andre the Giant or my Delta force buddy who is 6'8" and 350 lbs it may be the perfect choice. I have people tell me all the time that even the 44 magnum is too much gun. I agree with that assessment to a point, that most shooters can not control even the 44 magnum.

Consider that I have combat performance tuned this snub for speed as an experiment. I post this to open up the forum to new ideas that are not necessarily the norm and to start debate. Also note that speed loader or moon clips are available for this revolver (can not do both, one or the other).
Post some video of you shooting and performing a combat reload for discussion. Some things do not become apparent until you put them into action. For example, I discovered that 44 magnum, moon clips, rubber grips and -30 are not a good mixture. As a master shooter that should be a simple thing. Why cant you use clips and speedloaders? I can with my 69 Smith after TKC customs cut it for clips. If this is a one or the other proposition I say speedloaders without reservation because clips are a PITA with the 44 magnum, the longer 460 would only aggravate the problem and then it depends on whether or not the brass you have like the clips.

If there is enough interest here I will call Jerry Miculek (I have his personal cell phone number) and see if he will do a video on shooting this in a video DA with combat draw cycle. "Get Some!!"
Anyone who calls Clark Custom Guns can get his number. You should really stop name dropping, it does not impress people here. We all know what Jerry can do, what he can do with a pistol is irrelevant to use mortals. What can you do?
Sorry, did not mean to imply name dropping, just suggesting I could quickly call him directly if there was interest here. If you call Clark they will not give you his private cell number as far as I know.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,686 Posts
Well, it's as heavy as an anvil. It's as loud as an above-ground nuclear test. It's as big as a washtub. It's kicks like a Missouri mule. It flashes like photo strobe. The pistol & ammo are inordinately expensive. And the ballistics, for defensive purposes, are well-beyond the threshold of "effective".

You're obviously an experienced pistolero & a defensive handgun theorist. Yet, IMHO, there's little here beyond "what if?".

Oh! And having 7 children, I have Santa's personal cell# on speed-dial...if anyone needs it. :biggrin2:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,937 Posts
What was interesting to me was in that video both of those bullets are doing almost exactly what I load for out of my 45-70 with a 20" barrel. I shoot both the flex tip and the 405 grain flat nose lead bullets. I'm not sure I could accurately rapid fire the 460. I have tried it with 255 grain bullets and lets just say I'm no Jerry! I have tried shooting the 460 with a high end load and my recovery time between shots was painfully slow. But if you can do it Id love to see the video!

I do carry a 45 colt as an SD gun in bear or cat country. I load a 255 grain bullet and expect it to do pretty much what the lead solid did in the video. Penetrate deeply! DR
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
240 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Well, it's as heavy as an anvil. It's as loud as an above-ground nuclear test. It's as big as a washtub. It's kicks like a Missouri mule. It flashes like photo strobe. The pistol & ammo are inordinately expensive. And the ballistics, for defensive purposes, are well-beyond the threshold of "effective".

You're obviously an experienced pistolero & a defensive handgun theorist. Yet, IMHO, there's little here beyond "what if?".
Your right, I performance tuned it as an experiment last summer. I believe that the conventional wisdom is often wrong and my experience is to test ideas out by experimentstion. I had come to similar conclusions and wanted to validate if I was missing something.

This goes on the shelf again with other experiments with no home. Thanks for all your comments. If anyone comes up with a reason that this is a good idea for SD let me know. Maybe there is a defensive application where it fits. Its ok for an emergency big bear defense but not with the light bullets. I prefer a Marlin 45-70 with 540 grain Garrett cartriges for big bear emergencies.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,086 Posts
After watching the Jerry video the window shows other 460 vids.
One of them is a mortal testing his rapid fire ability at bear breath range. He is not on paper very much.

That cartridge is really not for rapid fire in my opinion, and is probably why you are mashing the pin spring. Does the pin spring flatten after a normal day at the range with that beast?

My M69 is plenty enough for me and my limitations. I wouldn't shoot a 460 on a bet.
I have been lusting for another revolver and the 629 PC snub calls me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20,022 Posts
Within the limits of the practical handgun limitations, especially those that are the reality that most people are capable of, there's not a damn thing it will do that a 41,44,or 45 Colt can't do.

As far as I'm concerned, you would have to be about damned stupid to choose that oversized, overweight hunk of metal over a carbine that is more accurate, farther reach, and not much heavier.

Its a dumb idea for SD against bipeds.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
240 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
That cartridge is really not for rapid fire in my opinion, and is probably why you are mashing the pin spring. Does the pin spring flatten after a normal day at the range with that beast?
Does not flatten spring slow fire. I have not shot it since last fall. The rapid DA firing pin spring issue was bothersome since the firing pin ends up free floating in the channel and can/does drag the cartridges.

On a positive note, when I test out some of these ideas through experimentation I sometimes discover things that others have not documented, which I find useful.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Struckat

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,339 Posts
Okay....so the .460 will give you terminal ballistics very similar to a mild .45-70 load, and that is a huge benefit over most common defensive calibers. I guess I have two questions.

#1. What environment are you carrying it in?

#2. Does that terminal ballistics advantage offset the following disadvantages?
-heavy weight of both rounds and revolver
-thickness of the revolver
-very limited round count
-difficulty of concealing reloads
-limited capacity for quantity of rounds in the revolver
-slow reloads when compared to a semi-auto
-slow follow-up shots when compared to a moderately powered defensive caliber

Yes, I know that the last two items are mitigated by shooter skill....but think about all of the time, money, ammo, and effort that goes into earning that skill and how fast that shooter would be with a magazine change on a semi-auto after investing the same effort.

Really...without even adding the weight of the .460 ammunition, that revolver weighs in at 59 ounces. A Glock 40, a Trijicon RMR sight, 15+1 rounds of ammo in the magazine inserted in the firearm, a spare magazine, and another 15 rounds of ammo in that will come out to a total weight of 53.5 ounces. That's a long slide 10mm, with a red dot optic, and 31 rounds of 10mm...and it still comes in six ounces lighter (and half an inch shorter) than the unloaded 5 shot revolver?

Since we've started down the road of that comparison, is there a plausible scenario against a human assailant that the .460 defensive load would provide a real advantage over a well placed 180 grain Hornady XTP moving at somewhere around 1400 FPS?

So....while I heartily support the concept of "different strokes for different folks" and I definitely agree that the .460 S&W is a fascinating cartridge for stopping ridiculously large mammals from doing ridiculously unpleasant things to people, I guess I just can't wrap my head around why. I can understand the appeal of doing something that nobody else is doing - and I think that wheelguns are just plain cool....but I simply cannot find an angle from which to become a logical supporter of the .460 as a defensive caliber intended for use on mammals under 400 pounds.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,086 Posts
Jesus, Mary, and Joseph!! If I have to carried something like that, I'm staying home.
No no OD, you just need to have a guy for that. Here is how I would do it.

"Son, I see a target, hand me the weapon! Wow, this scares me! Here, you shoot it."
BOOM!
"Good shot Son. Are you ok? Now go gut that thing."
 
1 - 20 of 44 Posts
Top