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Discussion Starter #1
So, my first post here. Lurked a while at PDO, decided to try this out. Yesterday was my first day carrying, as I just recieved my CCP about 3 days ago and my college doesn't allow carrying, of course. So there's two firsts for ya.

Anyway, I'm heading to Renton, so I decide to carry. I'm in my car with 2 other people, and we're stuck on Montlake traffic, heading to 520. So we're squeezing along, and we come into a merging intersection, one which is basically a Y-intersection, but converging, not splitting. So I'm in the left lane of the left side, just rolling at a lovely 2mph through the stop light (which was green), when I notice a school bus has decided to finish going through the red light (to be fair, he was far enough past his line, he should have kept going). So I decide I have two options, I can either keep going and try to get in front of him (not too hard), or I can wait and make that decision. So I hold off a while, and notice that the bus driver isn't really making any effort to notice me, so I decide to back off, and pull in behind.

Keep in mind that this bus was at a red light when it decided to go through the light, when you read what happened next.

So I let the bus go, and start to pull in behind it. The guy behind the bus (who had gone through the green light by this time, since we've moving so slow) decides he's not going to let me. We play a little game of chicken, when I finally decide to concede. I'm a little ticked off, of course, and I honk to let him know my displeasure at his maturity. I mean he was stuck at a red light, sees our lane go through, but decides he needs to force me behind him anyway.

He decides, for whatever reason, that I was unjustified, and with his hole arm shaking, tosses me a middle finger. I'm only too happy to return it, still not too worked up over it, just a little frustrated at him. Then he throws his car in park, and continues to flip me off. I think this dude had about 20 years on me too, but that's a different story.

The scenario comes next. After he realizes that he's holding not only me up, but the rest of commuter traffic, he starts to shift his car. His reverse lights come on, and that's where my question comes in.

What if he had decided to hit me in that moment? I was armed, and he would have demonstrated the means to do me harm, have the tools to do me and my passengers harm, as well as attempt to carry out the means.

My first reaction (after I made sure nobody was seriously hurt) was that I was going to draw my weapon and circle to his hood, ordering him out. I would have had one of the other passengers call the police, but until then, I wasn't going to let this guy go. And if he did decide to shift the car into drive, I would have been within my rights to discharge my firearm, I believe, as he would have been intentionally trying to run me over.

But after I thought about it for a while, like another mile or 20 minutes, I don't know if I would have been able to do that, legally. Morally, I feel I would have been justified, but I'm curious as to what anybody else would have done?

And FYI, he didn't do that, after he put the car into reverse for a split second, he shifted into drive and that was the end of that.
 

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He decides, for whatever reason, that I was unjustified, and with his hole arm shaking, tosses me a middle finger. I'm only too happy to return it
If your going to sink to this level and escalate situations you might want to re evaluate your decision to carry. As a CCW licensee it behooves you to deescalate situations not buy into an escalating spiral
 

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Redneck repairs beat me to it.

When you carry, you must be extra-polite, and extra-tolerant of the idiots you encounter in daily life.

Because if you ever are in a deadly force encounter, you want to come across as the victim of a sudden violent attack, not the willing participant in a conflict that escalates to deadly force.

The second scenario is a path to prison, or as Massad Ayoob says "proceed to Mongo" (Mongo being your new, large, hairy cellmate).

As to the car thing, IMHO if he bumps your car (and if he is just a few feet away, he's not going to do much more than that), you are not in imminent jeopardy of death or serious bodily harm.

Matt
 

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+1. Carrying is a huge responsibility. You carry to protect you and your own, not to be Dirty Harry. Cell phones are your friend in this instance.
I'm not trying to be harsh, but you need to read some of the posts in the Scenarios forum and you'll see the hot-headed, knee-jerk reaction will only serve to get you into trouble. No faming intended here.

Steve
Redneck Repairs said:
If your going to sink to this level and escalate situations you might want to re evaluate your decision to carry. As a CCW licensee it behooves you to deescalate situations not buy into an escalating spiral
 

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Discussion Starter #5
san antone rr said:
No faming intended here.

Steve
None taken, I appreciate the opinions. That's why I'm here, and glad it never escalated.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking foward to drawing a weapon. That's why I was questioning my reaction later. I'd rather never have to draw it, and I'm a rather defensive driver.

The few feet we had between us was a rather large distance, at least a car length, probably closer to 2.5. I like to leave a lot of room between the car in front of me, just incase of things like this. But even if he had decided to drive into me, I had nowhere to go but foward.

I will admit, returning the finger was definitely not my finest moment. At the time, I was still fairly calm, and should have thought better. I wasn't in anger, honestly, though he probably assumed it was.

Quite honestly, the fight-or-flight/adrenaline instinct didn't kick in until the reverse lights kicked on.

I was far enough away for him to do some potential damage, and my passenger was sitting quite close to the airbag at this time to make leg room for the person in the rear.

Just a life lesson, I guess. Thanks for the opinions.
 

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I should have stated that my post was not intended to be a flame of any sort, just an opinion.

Welcome to the forums, by the way - I hope you'll like it here. Lots of good folks willing to offer advice and commentary.

Matt
 

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Discussion Starter #7
MattLarson said:
I should have stated that my post was not intended to be a flame of any sort, just an opinion.
not a problem, I didn't take it personally. I can see where you were coming from. I am still green behind the ears when it comes to carrying. I might be able to shoot fairly well, but I haven't done more then carry, in the trunk, to and from the range when it comes to dealing with people and being armed.
 

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Welcome to the forum.

Got to say I agree with what has been said so far.

Have to add that if it did go as far as you took it your place is IN the car getting his tag number and dialing 911. Let the Police stand in front of his car with guns drawn if they want too, that isn't your job or place.

Now, if he starts breaking into your car and you CAN'T escape.........
 

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I'll only add another small 2c - repeating what has been said really - once we CCW we are even more obligated to avoid trouble and achieve de-escalation of situations where possible.

Cultivation of good situational awareness is part of the deal - seeing and hearing earlier so as to avoid involvement - or at least be a good witness.

We have the ultimate tool in our possession but only as last ditch use - we need to always be aware of our responsibility and learn to even swallow pride too. The bird we get flipped - does not need returned - better to make distance and go on our way - that sorta thing.

Re-analyze carefully your carry motives and mindset - be Mr responsible and Mr polite - and only ever consider drawing your firearm if you know you can say with truth - ''I was in fear for my life'' - most else does not wash. :smilez:
 

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What they said, you are armed, and since I have been carrying I have let a lot of total Dumb A$$'s go with a big smile and a hello wave from me. as to being backed into, not a problem, big truck with a big push bar on the front, the kind designed to take are real good hit with out doing anything to the truck. I back into parking spaces, and the front end has been hit several times, all it does is set off the Viper security system, and they leave some paint behind.
 

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i would have to disagree with you 100%, i don't think you would have been justified in using your weapon to fire and kill this individual, he was only a few feet away, you guys were both in cars, and he was stopped, he would have only been able to get enough momentum to get up to a few miles per hour before he would hit you, he was in the heat of the moment, so were you since you would have flipped him off back, yes he was trying to cause harm to you, but he was because he was angered at you for honking at him, more than likely he wasn't aware that he made you mad, and you waving your gun would only make you be charged with assault regardless of the situation at hand, don't let road rage enter you into a jail cell, its not worth it, just let those stupid things go! Plus you had dozens of witnesses to tell the police he hit your car on purpose. Must be the first day carrying that got to you.
 

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Being legally armed carries the greatest responsibility. Trading single digit salutes is childish at best and always tends to esculate a situation that is better ignored. Keep your cool and stay calm.
 

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BigDaddy5 said:
not a problem, I didn't take it personally. I can see where you were coming from. I am still green behind the ears when it comes to carrying. I might be able to shoot fairly well, but I haven't done more then carry, in the trunk, to and from the range when it comes to dealing with people and being armed.
Great attitude and acknowledgement of your knowledge and limitations conerning CC. You'll do well here with your eagerness to learn. This is a great place to learn, talk about scenarios, tactics and weapons.

By posing the question you did, it enabled the community to give honest feedback and, hopefully, steer any reader in the right direction who might have had doubts about their own reaction in a similar situation.

We have ALL been new to CC before. And we all have had to study, learn and accomodate the changes that we had to make in our lives when we took upon ourselves the responsibility to excersize our God given right as free men and women to bear arms.

Welcome to the forum.
 

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One great piece of advice I've picked up is when you take your gun with you, leave your middle finger at home.
 

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One thing you said in your post is that, the reverse lights only came on for a split second. If his car was an automatic, they would've come on when he pulled it from park to drive, just a thought.
 

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I think it has all been said. And with that I am soo glad you did not draw your weapon. I would hate to see you go to jail and that is probably what would have happened. We CCW'ers are held to a much higher standard than most. I do not let myself get riled up and if you can say I'm sorry and back away from trouble you had better do it. Because if something does go down and you drew your weapon all they need to prove is that you could have backed down de-escalating it and you are cooked.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
ENSANE1970 said:
One thing you said in your post is that, the reverse lights only came on for a split second. If his car was an automatic, they would've come on when he pulled it from park to drive, just a thought.
That is very true, and it was only that split second that I was at all concerned about. However, in an automatic, the reverse lights don't come on unless you stick the car in reverse for a second. If you skip past it, shifting to drive, they wont come on.

It only takes a second, ya know? That's why I was really concerned for that second. After they went off, and he moved foward, it was business as usual, and I was fine, but for that split second that his lights were on, you know?

Anyway, I'm glad to have some advice here on what to do next time. It's definitely something I'll take to heart when/if something like this happens again.
 

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I was involved in an attempted bump-and-jack after working late one night, back in March, but I was hit from the rear. The goofballs who hit my 1990 Grand Marq. hit it with an even older little Toyota. I felt a bit of a bump, but the whole front end of that bitty thing exploded, and I saw fragments fly out both directions. The two would-be thugs got out of their car and started coming up either side of my car with their hands in the pockets of their oversize coats. I wasn't carrying because of where I had been during the day. So, I drove off and left them standing in the middle of the street. I called in the accident once I was out of the area. PD said I did right. Didn't catch the guys, so their car must have still been driveable, but they had no lights, bumper, and their radiator was exposed. You couldn't tell that my car had been touched. I love those old battlecruisers.
 

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No offense big daddy

However, in an automatic, the reverse lights don't come on unless you stick the car in reverse for a second. If you skip past it, shifting to drive, they wont come on.

No offense, but you're wrong I work on cars for a living, guess that makes me a mechanic. When you switch an automatic, to drive you go past reverse, which turns the backup lights on everytime. The same when you go from drive to park, the reverse lights come one when putting the vehicle in park. If you're car is an automatic, have a friend put it in drive and stand behind it, you'll see what I meen.
 

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I have just returned from WA state after 2 months, and I must say that the drivers in that state, at least around Puyallup, are the most courteous drivers. Never have I had other drivers let you pullout of a driveway, or stop to let you make a turn, than the way the WA drivers do. Geez, I felt like I was something special, especially with NV plates on my truck. When I drove back, down through CA and back in NV, I felt like I was at a racetrack, doing "bump drafting". My son, who was with me, who lives in WA for 15 years, had forgot about all the agressive driving of CA drivers, and it carried over into NV, as most NV are ex-CA. Here in NV, like CA, "pedal to the metal" otherwise you'll get ran over by an 18 wheeler.

I agree with what most have said about you have to be on your "P's & Q's" now that you are carrying. I carried up there , with my non-res permit. One problem is that WA doesnt require any training to get a CCP, that being, just pay the $60 and pass the background check, and that is it. Here in NV; much like AZ, you have to take classes and pass both a written and a range exam, then here in Clark County, pay $105 and wait 6-12 months for the permit to get back to you. I do think that is good to take classes, etc., but I do think the county is "raping" the citizen with that excessive amount.

So, in closing, be glad you arent in CA or NV if you want to meet excessive driving experiences.
 
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