[P95Carry]

Many months ago I think I posted about ''macho'' CCW's - you know, young guy, gun on hip - invincible and just itching to find a BG to "cap his a$$''. A few may remember.

Well - hopefully I put a young fella in all but this category on the straight and narrow today. He called by to pick up something for his dad and - we got talking guns, of course. He's a good lad, intelligent, hard working and I have known him a while.

He got his CCW maybe two months ago, possibly a bit less. He is full of it and proudly showed me his G17. But as we talked I sensed he was ''spoiling for a fight'' and asked him directly if he really did want to shoot a bad guy!

He said yes - in a roundabout sorta way and so I asked him numerous questions regarding why, and whether he realized the implications, of even a ''good shoot''. Turns out he really had not thought things thru much at all - just seeing himself as the ''Superhero'' who would bring law and order to the county!!

I will not ramble too much further - because you know my penchant for that :biggrin:. Suffice to say, after some honest to goodness heart-to-heart discussion, including reminding him that escape was a good option, I felt he was back on the straight and narrow. This was pleasing because he probably now has seen the light and transitioned to a good and responsible CCW guy.

I do worry tho that his original attitude might be present in other young and new CCW's, eager to ''prove'' something.! I remember testosterone all too well of course :lol:

 

[gunthorp]

The attitue can be noticed in "victims" who newly acquire their permits. Some of us ol folks can fall into the Charles Bronson mentality. Just a rundown of a good shoot scenario aftermath with a pinch of lawyer and liability insurance usually does the trick. It keeps the discussion focused on situational awareness and avoidance.

 

[Euclidean]

I'll admit that the feeling you get after you get over the initial difficulties is a strong sense of personal empowerment.

But that doesn't last too long. I think about things now and realize that I'm still the same person.

Someone asked me once as a permit holder if I would try to stop someone from hurting a third party. I said yes. They pointed to this as evidence I was an overstuffed macho monkey itching to shoot someone.

However, I can't think of a situation where I wouldn't try to get involved even if I didn't have a gun. If your mother is beating beaten with a stick, you're going to get involved in that situation regardless of whether or not you are armed.

I also think people talk a lot of crap and aren't honest with themselves. Precious few people actually want to harm anyone even if they have it coming. It's one thing to resolve that your life is worth bursting your own bubble on that issue, it's quite another to honestly enjoy it. The former is a hard fought decision the morality of which we can debate forever, the former is the kind of depravity we seek to protect ourselves from.

I had an instructor some time ago say this to me in his most diplomatic tone: the problem with people like me, the biggest problem I'd face in any situation, is hesitation. Being overly afraid of the consequences gets people killed. That's the hardest thing to train is your own mindset sometimes.

I have to admit, I've come around on a lot of things and one could say I've become more macho as a result of CCW interest. But I would say it's not so much that I've changed, it's that I've become honest with myself about how I really feel about certain things.

 

[Bud White]

Good thing ya had a talk with him some people are like that i know a few i dont really talk to anymore there little bit gung ho for there own good and i dont want to het caught up when they do anything stupid

 

[rocky]

Nice job.

 

[Miggy]

Chris, even though it will not apply to your state, get him a copy of Florida Firearms Law book. To me it was a huge eye opener about the many ways I gould get in real dodo by playing "the Hero." The book goes in some deatil about what you thought could be a good shooting turning out to be your one way ticket to the state prison. It cites plenty of examples in which good people made a silly assumption or mistake and now they are ruined for life or serving time.

 

[Scott]

Good job Chris. Hopefully he takes you discussion to heart.

-Scott-

 

[buzzg]

Euclidian's point is well taken re hesitation. LEO's face that in the current world where they get persecuted for even a "good shooting". One trip down the path with IAD and they begin to "think twice". I have a friend now retired from law enforcement who had to weather that storm. As armed citizens we are not OBLIGATED by law to come to someone's aid or to intervene in a hold-up, etc. LEO's are obligated. In our case, avoidance, de-escalation and disengagement are our three best options. Where I train, Oregon Firearms Academy, they tend to stress that approach.

 

[CLASS3NH]

GREAT thing you di for him Chris! I hope that talk you had with him, placed his head in a different mode of thought.
I too... as being a FFL and working at the store, and seeing all the "wannabees" and the "Dirty Harry" types filter in, always reminds me to ask a few simple questions before the sale begins.
They usually talk about what they see in the movies, and I remind em that it's ONLY a movie, NOT real life situations.
Most don't realize what they're going to face when they encounter a BG in real life. I usually direct them to a course such as the Leathal Force Institute, as they will certainly learn a lot from it.
Of course, everybody that comes into the Store, wants to see the AR-15 typre on the racks, and also the Desert Eagles we have in the case. The Glocks are a huge hit as well.
I find that most (usually the youinger prospective buyers) don't have a clue of what the weapon is or how it operates, until I show them.
All too much, we find the Media, and Movies, depicting people who are CCW carrying, thrarting a bank robbery, or store holdup, or a mall shoot-em-up. In real life, I'm sure they wouldn't know what the heck to do, but run for cover.
Like a vast majority of us on the Forum, best thing is to observe and report, unless the threat is directly coming in our direction, or nearby innocents are in imminent danger. If such occured, I'd react accordingly, but not until that time. :biggrin:

 

[P95Carry]

the biggest problem I'd face in any situation, is hesitation. Being overly afraid of the consequences gets people killed.

Never a truer word spoken Euc - and despite practice, training, call it what we will there is still that having to ''cross the line''.

Will it be too rapid and so instigate an avoidable chain of events - or might it be too late and it's lights out time. It is one of my major concerns and probably for many of us will never be fully known - but then too hopefully none of us will have to find out.

Bob - I dread to imagine some of the types you must see come in the store - but at least some patient words of explanation just could be invaluable.

 

[Ti Carry]

Good job P95,

This is exactly why I think that only taking the 8 hour! 4 Hr. study, 4 Hr. range, CCW class is not even close to enough training for a youngster or anyone else for that matter carrying for self defense. His attitude about "finding a BG" was way off for sure! you did a real good job probing and asking questions. He dosen't know it yet but you probably save his butt from being or doing something stupid in the future.

Ti.

 

[P95Carry]

Ti - yes, hopefully he is seeing things more sensibly. In fact I am sure he does.

Interesting point here - thing is shall issue in PA does not mandate any training - which is in some ways a problem, instance this young fella.

On the one hand, we should be able to excercize our rights with no frills - but in some states I feel it goes the other way - huge costs in particular seeming punitive for so many. Somewhere in between is a compromize whereby the inexperienced get at least enough help to make sure they are safe and also cognisant of law matters.

If we had a course mandated - it would probably be along lines of the NRA Personal Protection course I teach - then I reckon this would start folks off right - yes, even the young macho guy! Thing is - we deal with the mindset and legal aspects in quite some depth and during a course would reckon to pick up on folks who are too ''gung-ho'' - and put 'em straight.

With the PP course we are looking at a coupla days - with plenty of range time too - IMO a great start for the uninitiated. They may not finish that with actual skills but they will have some proficiency - on which skills can be built thru further practice. We actually add beyond the NRA content - with regard to some range aspects too.

 

[DaveT]

Years ago (1981) when I was a patrol officer for a small department, I worked with a fellow officer who was the loud type, always telling everyone what he would do if placed in certain situations. He constantly talked of how he would "blow away the bad guy". After having spent a couple of tours in 'Nam, I was well familiar with the kind of person he was, and I suspected that all of his talk was nothing but hot air. Little did I know that I would find out the hard way a short time later....

One night at shift change between evening and midnight shifts, a teenage girl came running into the police department, stating that her Father was drunk, had a pistol and was threatening to kill her Mother. The house was only a few blocks away. I had recently completed a SWAT team school, so the other two officers immediately thought I should be in charge. We did everything by the book, parked away from the house, walked up silently so as not to make our presence known, had the dispatcher trying to reach the man on the phone. The house was dark except for one light in a hallway, there was no movement at all. We had a diagram of the inside of the house that the girl drew for us, she said that her Father was in the living room when she left, that if he was not there, he would probably be in his bedroom, right off to the side of the living room. After 20 minutes of trying to get the man to verbally respond, we still had nothing from inside the house. We did not know if he had already killed himself, if he had passed out, or whatever.

The decision was made to enter the house, I was the first officer in the front door. Going in low and taking every possible precaution, I soon discovered that the living room was empty. The door to the bedroom was to my right, but entering the doorway would have put my gun hand on the wrong side, so I rolled across the opening so I could look into the doorway with my gun on my strong side. As I took quick glances into the room, I could see that the room was faintly illuminated by a hallway light from another doorway to the left in the bedroom. The foot of the bed was facing the door I was at and I could see the man's feet, like he was sleeping. I began to talk into the room, to see if the man was awake, if he was asleep, or if he was willing to give it all up. Nothing, no response at all, no movement at all. Thinking that he might be passed out, I crouched down and began to ease my way around the door frame, my head probably even with his feet. Just as my head entered the door opening, a gunshot went off and the round impacted into the wall, about an inch or two from my head. He had been laying on his back with a pistol on his stomach, waiting for me to enter the room.

I immediately bailed out of the front door and back into the front yard. The officer I mentioned above who was always bragging about taking down bad guys was totally frozen in front of the suspect's bedroom window. As I looked at the window, the light from the hallway inside the house allowed me to see the shadow of the man rise up off the bed and swing his gun around in the direction of the window. When I bailed back into the yard, I was standing behind the officer who was frozen, looking past him to the window. With my S&W Model 66 357, I fired two rounds through the window at the shadow, right over the frozen officer's right shoulder. The subject went down, I could still see the shadow of the gun in his hand as he flew backwards.

When we successfully re-entered the house a few minutes later, the subject was sprawled sideways across the bed, the gun still in his hand. He was still breathing, but died before the ambulance arrived. One of my rounds missed him totally, the other impacted into his heart and exploded.

The officer who froze acted like he was in shock, being very quiet during the next couple of hours when the Texas Ranger and Sheriff's Department Investigator worked the crime scene. It was easily determined that because of the street light behind the officer when he froze in front of the window, he was clearly silhouetted through the pull down paper window shade and that the gunman was obviously moving to shoot him.

Later on that morning when we were all off shift, we ate breakfast at one of the officer's house, our three wives gathered there with us as well. During breakfast, the officer who froze broke down and bawled, sobbing over and over that he couldn't believe he froze, and apologizing profusely.

The big lesson he learned that day was that all his previous "I'll blow the bad guy away" talk nearly got him killed because he was not mentally prepared to do what he should have been doing during the situation.

His actions reinforced what I had learned in Vietnam... the ones who have that kind of attitude and constantly talk like they are John Wayne are the ones I do not trust and keep a wary eye on. In most cases. a 'John Wayne' attitude will get someone into big trouble in very short order.

P95Carry, your talk with that young man might have done more good that you will ever realize. Your experience and wisdom should be yet another tool that he carries with him.... just like the gun on his hip.

 

[P95Carry]

Dave - thx for that - a revealing incident for sure. Nasty situation you were in there.

I guess we might sometimes say, tho not as a perhaps entirely consistent truism - ''beware the quiet man'' :smile:

 

[d2thomas]

Being that I'm only 22 years old, I feel as though I may speak candidly about my age group.....It's honestly a shame there are young adults out there with that mindset, sad, but very true. I wish more people could have that epiphany that your young man in the story hopefully got. I pray I live to be gray and old without ever having to use my weapon in self defense.

 

[DocAmentler]

Good for you P95! I always emphasize the ramifications of a shooting during my CCW classes. Even a "good" shooting can be devastating mentally, physically and financially. Not many think about that. It's something that people need to prepare for. As much as possible anyway.

 

[P95Carry]

I pray I live to be gray and old without ever having to use my weapon in self defense.

Amen to that d2 - very much so for us all.

I should mention tho it is probably obvious on reflection and, someone else made this statement recently - there are perhaps just as many ''ol' phart'' category folks with CCW just as much off base as this young fella I mentioned - so do not feel it is only your age group with a problem at times.

One of my clubs is very much hunting oriented and to hear one or two of those guys - some middle aged and more - spouting the same sorta crap!! This not actually so relevant to CCW - often just that they are gun owner/hunters - with attitude!! Equally dangerous perhaps.

I do my best (diplomatically) to educate anyone I find with a crazy attitude but have to say - died-in-wool older guys are real hard work!!

 

[RobL]

I think "In the Gravest Extreme" is still timely and should be part of any gun owner's library. I try to read it once a year, just to keep the points fresh in my mind.

 

[Fjolnirsson]

the biggest problem I'd face in any situation, is hesitation. Being overly afraid of the consequences gets people killed.

I have just the opposite problem. I've had to train myself to not get involved with stuff. After years of security, loss prevention, bouncing in bars, and going through a police academy, my natural tendencies to head into trouble were emphasized.
Now that I've moved away from that field, I find myself with instincts as well as training telling me to intervene. I've ultimately had to realize that my family must come first, and that means no involvement, unless I'm directly attacked. In times past, I've often helped strangers out of a jam, intervening, and standing by until the cops arrive. Now, It'd have to be a very clear cut situation for me to risk involvement. Very sad. :frown:

 

[SOLOLUCKY]

Miggy,
where can i get the florida law book you mention?
it seems like it would be interesting/enlightening reading even if not directly applicable to ohio laws.
would it be downloadable (or such) from packing.org?