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Discussion Starter #1
The basics are:
  • A unit of the Mexican National Guard approaches a house in Mexico City.
  • They come under attack from four drug cartel guys inside.
  • They get inside the house and capture the four, one of whom is Ovidio Guzman, the son of "El Chapo" Guzman who was extradited to the US to stand trial. Ovidio is also wanted in the US.
  • The house is immediately surrounded by cartel gunman, who law siege to it. Bullets are flying all over that section of the city and civilians take shelter.
  • To up the ante, cartel gunmen swarm throughout the city, shooting and blowing up cars at random.
  • The National Guard unit decides they can't win and release Guzman to the gunmen outside, ending the battle.
I gotta lot of questions and concerns about this.
  • Mexico City is comparable in size to New York City
  • This was not the local PD, this was the National Guard, in full combat gear.
  • They got their asses kicked by drug cartel reinforcements who showed up immediately. Where was the National Guard backup?
  • Who is in control in Mexico City? The National Guard can't arrest and hold four guys in a house, yet the cartel can terrorize a whole city and get the National Guard to give up.
  • Can you imagine this happening in NYC or any other major US city? Can you imagine government forces losing in a situation like this? This is over and above any mass shooting scenario the US has ever seen, in that government forces were not able to end it by force. They had to surrender. There has never been a criminal enterprise in the US that could have pulled this off.
  • I realize this situation had no direct relation to civilian gun ownership, but Mexico has really strict gun laws, yet they have stuff like this happen. They also have a much higher murder rate than the US does. The anti-gunners say, "That's because they have a drug problem and a gang problem." What? We don't have drug and gang problems? Why does anyone think taking civilian guns away prevents warfare in the streets? If this happened in the US, liberals would still be calling for more gun control, like that would effect the cartel.
  • Some liberal politicians say the idea of US gun owners fighting tyranny by the government is an outdated concept because the government has a high tech military. Well, the Mexican military is not nearly as sophisticated as ours, but they have attack aircraft, they have artillery, they have tanks, etc. What good did it do them in this situation? None at all. It's obvious that with some organization and a lot of guns, governments are not as invincible as they think they are.
https://www.oann.com/cartel-gunmen-chase-away-security-forces-free-el-chapos-son/
 

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The basics are:
  • A unit of the Mexican National Guard approaches a house in Mexico City.
  • They come under attack from four drug cartel guys inside.
  • They get inside the house and capture the four, one of whom is Ovidio Guzman, the son of "El Chapo" Guzman who was extradited to the US to stand trial. Ovidio is also wanted in the US.
  • The house is immediately surrounded by cartel gunman, who law siege to it. Bullets are flying all over that section of the city and civilians take shelter.
  • To up the ante, cartel gunmen swarm throughout the city, shooting and blowing up cars at random.
  • The National Guard unit decides they can't win and release Guzman to the gunmen outside, ending the battle.
I gotta lot of questions and concerns about this.
  • Mexico City is comparable in size to New York City
  • This was not the local PD, this was the National Guard, in full combat gear.
  • They got their asses kicked by drug cartel reinforcements who showed up immediately. Where was the National Guard backup?
  • Who is in control in Mexico City? The National Guard can't arrest and hold four guys in a house, yet the cartel can terrorize a whole city and get the National Guard to give up.
  • Can you imagine this happening in NYC or any other major US city? Can you imagine government forces losing in a situation like this? This is over and above any mass shooting scenario the US has ever seen, in that government forces were not able to end it by force. They had to surrender. There has never been a criminal enterprise in the US that could have pulled this off.
  • I realize this situation had no direct relation to civilian gun ownership, but Mexico has really strict gun laws, yet they have stuff like this happen. They also have a much higher murder rate than the US does. The anti-gunners say, "That's because they have a drug problem and a gang problem." What? We don't have drug and gang problems? Why does anyone think taking civilian guns away prevents warfare in the streets?
    Some liberal politicians say the idea of US gun owners fighting tyranny by the government is an outdated concept because the government has a high tech military. Well, the Mexican military is not nearly as sophisticated as ours, but they have attack aircraft, they have artillery, they have tanks, etc. What good did it do them in this situation? None at all. It's obvious that with some organization and a lot of guns, governments are not as invincible as they think they are.
https://www.oann.com/cartel-gunmen-chase-away-security-forces-free-el-chapos-son/
The illusion of control, illustrated. 33,000 criminal gangs currently operating in the US.

"The Mara Salvatrucha (MS-13) and 18th Street gangs continue to expand their influence in the United States. FBI investigations reveal these transnational gangs are present in almost every state and continue to grow their memberships, now targeting younger recruits more than ever before."

https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/violent-crime/gangs
 

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Discussion Starter #3
The illusion of control, illustrated. 33,000 criminal gangs currently operating in the US.

"The Mara Salvatrucha (MS-13) and 18th Street gangs continue to expand their influence in the United States. FBI investigations reveal these transnational gangs are present in almost every state and continue to grow their memberships, now targeting younger recruits more than ever before."

https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/violent-crime/gangs
Not only that, the FBI has estimated that something like 2% of the US military is comprised of active gang members, which is 50 to 100 times more per capita than the general US population. Gangs encourage some members to join the military to gain combat training and experience and bring it back to the gang.

But who needs an AR-15?
 

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Everyone knows the cartels run Mexico.
Most all politicians are corrupt with drug money or too scared to do anything.
I do feel sorry for the honest police and soldiers who are caught in the middle of this.
Strict gun laws have never made for a safer society, just the opposite is true.
 

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Not only that, the FBI has estimated that something like 2% of the US military is comprised of active gang members, which is 50 to 100 times more per capita than the general US population. Gangs encourage some members to join the military to gain combat training and experience and bring it back to the gang.

Same thing happens in Mexico. I think it's a mistake to view all cartel/gang members as inept amateurs. Some of these guys have a depth of experience.

In this situation, bad guys were motivated, corrupt government forces didn't have any skin in the game.
 

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Mexico city is 572 square miles, and has 21 million people living within it's borders. NYC is 302 square miles and 8.63 million people.

It's obvious that with some organization and a lot of guns, governments are not as invincible as they think they are.

That's not obvious to me. What's obvious in this example is Mexico decided the cartels actions against civilians in retaliation for capturing a cartel figure wasn't worth more civilian or military deaths.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Mexico city is 572 square miles, and has 21 million people living within it's borders. NYC is 302 square miles and 8.63 million people.

It's obvious that with some organization and a lot of guns, governments are not as invincible as they think they are.

That's not obvious to me. What's obvious in this example is Mexico decided the cartels actions against civilians in retaliation for capturing a cartel figure wasn't worth more civilian or military deaths.
It is important to compare apples to apples of population in the "city proper," versus "metro area."
Mexico City: City Proper: 9,041,395, Metro Area: 21,654,333
NYC City Proper: 8,622,698, Metro Area:20,153,634

I grant you, NYC city proper does cover a smaller area.
 

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Well, regardless, Mexico seems fairly FUBAR'ed at this point.

Mexican cartels provide financial incentives for members of Mexico’s armed forces to defect, a symptom of the Mexican military's weak state. A 2008 USA Today article noted that from January to September 2007 4,956 soldiers deserted, approximately 2.5% of the force. Fox News reported that by 2012 over 56,000 soldiers deserted. As of 2016, the total approximate number of deserters is around 150,000. PBS interviewed local reporters in Cancun and a former police officer, learning the cartels would offer payments of $26,000 compared to the soldier’s $600 salary. Also, these underpaid officers were poorly trained and equipped, some to a point where an officer carried only six rounds of ammunition. The article also reported the cartels were waging a propaganda war against the military. They posted ads and offered better pay than the army. The cartels successfully recruit from the military, specifically even finding recruits from Mexican special forces communities. Many of these deserters end up working for the cartels as trained hitmen who comprehend Mexican military tactics. These trained ex-soldiers understand how to circumvent Mexican patrols, and have a basic understanding of how to effectively engage conventional military forces.
 

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I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the guys in the Guard were also cartel guys.
 

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Been waiting for an attack on Supermax to free El Chapo. A very possible scenario with the firepower the Cartels have now!.
Interesting idea, prisons are configured to keep people in, not so much out.
 

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Same thing happens in Mexico. I think it's a mistake to view all cartel/gang members as inept amateurs. Some of these guys have a depth of experience.

In this situation, bad guys were motivated, corrupt government forces didn't have any skin in the game.
Some are ex military who joined the Cartels to make more money.
 

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Just a word to the wise IF you happen to travel to the interior of Mexico. Be very wary of ANY Mexican state police. The federales are untrustworthy enough all by themselves, but the vast majority of state police are themselves part of the cartels.

Remember this when you're riding in a tour or resort bus and you have to stop for a police checkpoint. Those guys in body armor carrying automatic weapons that board the bus and walk through seat by seat, eyeing each passenger are not hunting for criminals!
 

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