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Discussion Starter #1
I read alot here about movement when training, how many move foward and sidward when training? I read about people moving back and to the side or to the side, but when engaging a threat my opinion (YMMV) is to "push" the target. Move foward and to the side. Sometimes "cover" isn't a option and you need to deal with the threat in a somewhat open space, and moving back makes it harder for you to get shots in that count. How do you train?
 

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First, I'm no expert. But I would think that it would depend on the situation, with the majority of the time moving away or to the side. Distance from the threat is your friend. Moving whatever direction to cover is best of course.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
TonyW said:
Distance from the threat is your friend.
This is only true cause it makes the threat harder to hit you, but it also makes it harder for you to hit the threat.
 

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Glockman17 said:
This is only true cause it makes the threat harder to hit you, but it also makes it harder for you to hit the threat.
Every situation is different. Is the attacker armed with a firearm? What about a knife, a baseball bat, does he appear under the influence, in an incoherent rage, how is he moving, is he acting alone or is there the potential for others with him. Is there a chance gaining distance will allow me to disengage and flee? You just can't generalize. Some situations may demand distance others I may want a forward oblique move. What about if I've got family members I'm protecting, that changes everything. What if one of my family is hit and down and on and on. You have to sum up everything very, very fast and act accordingly not based on a one size fits all theory.

Eric
 

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Discussion Starter #5
ELCruisr said:
Every situation is different. Is the attacker armed with a firearm? What about a knife, a baseball bat, does he appear under the influence, in an incoherent rage, how is he moving, is he acting alone or is there the potential for others with him.
Saying the attacker is armed with a knife or a firearm, dosn't matter. Pressing the attacker is the way to go, offence is better than defence.
Even if you were with your family, and one was hit, would you press foward or retreat? I personaly would press the attacker and make the attempt to take them out. You retreat you give the attacker more time to gain the upper hand.
Like you said every situation is different, but the object it to stay alive, and protect you and yours. If someone is firing on you and you have no effective cover you need to press the threat and do what you can to eliminate the threat (IMO).
I wish to never have to pull the trigger, but if I have to, I will do what it takes, and like I said I would rather be on the offence than the defence. Action beat's reaction everyday of the week.
 

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Originally Posted by Glockman17
Saying the attacker is armed with a knife or a firearm, dosn't matter.
Sure it does. The ranges within which a knife can be brought to bear are much more limited than those of a firearm. The capabilities of your assailant(s) should be a consideration when determining a course of action.

Originally Posted by Glockman17
Pressing the attacker is the way to go, offence is better than defence.
I would agree that taking the offensive generally the best course of action once a violent confrontation becomes unavoidable. Being on the offense means having the initiative. You must then use that initiative to place yourself in a position of advantage and your assailant(s) in a position of disadvantage.

That position of advantage may be to the left, right, front, rear or some combination. There may be also more than one position that provides you an advantage and/or disadvantages your assailant(s). The circumstances will dictate.

Blindly charging forward without regard for the circumstances because you consider it to be "offensive" is one-dimensional thinking and can get you killed.

Originally Posted by Glockman17
How do you train?
I train to move in all directions as I never know what the situation will require.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Blackhawk6 said:
Blindly charging forward without regard for the circumstances because you consider it to be "offensive" is one-dimensional thinking and can get you killed.
I'm not saying blindly, but I won't retreat when fired upon. Stand my ground yes, push foward when the time comes yes, retreat..... NO.

When your talking 20' or less doesn't matter if they have a gun or a knife. Even with 2 shots COM a attacker with a knife can cover 20' in the time it takes for you to survay the situation.

If it was so wrong in the "real" world, why would the US Armed forces teach push the atacker?
 

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I too consider circumstances alter events - and if I am seeing a knife then I sure want to move to side and away - not toward. There is some truth perhaps in ''taking the fight to the enemy'' but here I suspect in probable short time frames - the degree of movement possible may be quite limited anyways.

Also and frankly - even with good training - the particular situation we may find ourselves in will probably give mere milliseconds in which to decide - therefore there is not much luxury of assessment - we just have to react.

My #1 wish would be to find cover (if any) and extend distance - a coupla yards or so will not I feel suddenly make all my shots misses - plus if I have a harder time over accuracy then so does a BG if with gun - the odds change equally.
 

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I think the situation will determine what you do or don't do.

Training for every eventuality is not possible, nor practicle. I would think, and I'm no expert here, that it would be best to train to whatever situation you may encounter most often (i.e., urban, desert, forest, etc.). Then, alter that training to meet you current situation.

I've read that you should not train to react. To do so may lead to more problems. Instead you should train to think. Using the OODA (Observation-Orientation-Decision-Action) loop is one way of doing this. But, then again, I think it's best train in a way that's most comfortable for you.

There are so many different training methods, techniques, tools, etc. it's difficult to know what's going to work, especially for a newbie like myself. I'm trying to do my homework by researching as much as possible what methods, techniques, tools, etc. are out there and decide what's best for me.

Again, I'm not an expert by any means, so I'm interested to know what everyone else thinks.
 

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I am in it to survive a gunfight , not to assault a beach or a bg like a fireteam , i will move to the closest cover no matter the direction.
 

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Originally Posted by Glockman17
I'm not saying blindly, but I won't retreat when fired upon. Stand my ground yes, push foward when the time comes yes, retreat..... NO.
I am not sure how you are defining retreating. Moving backward toward a more advantagous position is not retreating.

Originally Posted by Glockman17
When your talking 20' or less doesn't matter if they have a gun or a knife. Even with 2 shots COM a attacker with a knife can cover 20' in the time it takes for you to survay the situation.
I think you have misinterpreted some observations. It has been repeatedly demonstrated that an attacker armed with a knife can cover 21' in the time an average stationary individual can draw and fire. To the best of my knowledge, no one has conducted this exercise where the knife weilder already had two COM hits, though I would suspect it may significantly impede his advance. It has been similarly proven, though, that moving when faced with such an attack affords the firearm-equipped individual more than adequate time to empty his firearm into his assailant and avoid being struck by the knife.

Originally Posted by Glockman17
If it was so wrong in the "real" world, why would the US Armed forces teach push the attacker?
Unfortunately, I can not address this point because you did not provide me with enough information. Can you tell me what it is that led you to believe the U.S. Armed Forces teach what you term "push the attacker" exclusively? Having instructed for and been instructed by the U.S. military I have never heard the term "push the attacker" nor have been instructed or instructed others to use the concept exclusively but rather only as the situation might dictate.

Originally Posted by SteveTwo
Training for every eventuality is not possible, nor practicle. I would think, and I'm no expert here, that it would be best to train to whatever situation you may encounter most often (i.e., urban, desert, forest, etc.). Then, alter that training to meet you current situation.
I believe you have the right idea. The key is to isolate those elements common to all scenarios, master them and gain an appreciation of how different circumstances impact their employment. The next step would be to build skill sets or templates that work regardless of the circumstances or that are easily adaptable to the circumstances.
 

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You Will React As You Have Trained!

Every situation is different. Your main defensive tool is your mind. If you have the proper mind set and are in Condition Yellow and see the attack before it even starts then you can make defensive moves. (Someone hiding behind car. Someone in the shadows ahead of you that could be a threat.) Seeing the attack before it happens allows you to make distance between you and the perceived threat. Making distance means you have more time as it takes more time for the Bad Guy to cover that distance. It also may prevent the attack all together as the Perp knows he has lost the element of surprise and the distance you have made radios to him that you know he is there and what he is up to. The distance also gives you more time if he does attach as it takes him more time to cover the larger distance.

Again you mind set is your best defensive and offensive tool. You must be ready to use all your abilities in a split second. First you must recognize an attack and react. If you don’t recognize it fast enough nothing you can do will matter.

Once you recognize the attack you must react. Your reactions are behind the perps actions so you are behind the curve and reacting. If you are only 5 yards away from the perp before you recognize the attack the knife he is coming at you with will be in your chest before you can draw and shoot.

Movement must be a part of your actions. Movement straight away or straight towards the perp does not change their angle of the attack especially if they have a firearm. Their point of aim is only getting smaller and is not moving left or right making them modify their aim in two planes.

If you move straight towards them you are closing the distance and again not changing their point of aim left and right but you only getting bigger in their sites. They want you close.

Moving laterally especially at an angle moving left or right and back at the same time makes it harder for them to hit you with a firearm and if they are attacking with a knife their direction of attack must change directions and that gives you more time every time they must change their angle of attack.

You should practice moving and shooting in all directions. You should practice shooting in all different positions. The more you practice the more apt you are to react to a threat using what you have practiced.

You could write a whole book on Movement in a self defense situation. This thread will cover just a small part of it. So don’t stop thinking about movement and shooting when this thread moves on. Think about it and practice it. That practice is what will give you the confidence to prevail when that attack really happens and you have to move and shoot to defend your life.
 

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Having experienced just a bit of combat way back in 1969-70, I can assure anyone that says they will always advance and never retreat that it will be very different under fire. The standard advice to seek cover will come quite naturally as will the tactic of putting distance between yourself and the bad guy! The goal in self defense is survival, not gaining a body count of the enemy...heh.
 

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Glockman17 said:
I'm not saying blindly, but I won't retreat when fired upon. Stand my ground yes, push foward when the time comes yes, retreat..... NO.

When your talking 20' or less doesn't matter if they have a gun or a knife. Even with 2 shots COM a attacker with a knife can cover 20' in the time it takes for you to survay the situation.

If it was so wrong in the "real" world, why would the US Armed forces teach push the atacker?
OK, moving backwards is not the same as retreating. And actually, many states do require an attempt to retreat, though I would concur that if you are being fired on, the time to retreat has passed.

The 21 feet 'rule' is based on the time to DRAW and fire, not when you are already aimed and potentially firing. You say that the guy with the knife can get you in the time to survey the situation, so what on earth would you hope to achieve by closing the gap?

As to the US Armed forces training, that is like comparing apples to oranges. Firstly, they are usually operating under a different mandate. They are often tasked with purely offensive objectives, such as securing a position. So, they would use offensive tactics.

Secondly, they are usually operating as a team in that scenario, so they have things like covering fire whilst moving forward.

Remember, CCW is not for offensive action, but defensive. Moving closer to the target could make it harder to prove you were trying to retreat (if your state requires this).

I have not heard anyone other than yourself advocate advancing on an armed target in a self defense scenario. and I have heard a lot of people. I've been lucky enough to have had training sessions with cops, current and former army, current and former members of various agencies. Some real interesting people who have really been there. And yes, a lot of their training involves going forward.

I do not recall any of them having recommended what you say for purely defensive scenarios. In fact, one guy, who has been in some agency or another for 40 years, specifically said that it would be pretty unlikely that I would advance on my target in a situation. Still made sure I was able to do it, but also made sure I knew how to move backwards and sideways too.

Moving closer just makes it easier for the unskilled to score hits. All you are doing is swinging the balance in favor of you adversary, unless you are a lousy shot.
 

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Training to move and shoot in every direction is the best way to go. The only thing that I refuse to teach is back peddeling. There are ways to engage while moving rearward without back peddeling.

I believe that getting off of the line of attack is very important. This accomplishes getting out of the kill zone as quickly as possible. Moving straight in or straight back simply does not get you out of the kill zone. But there are times when moving straight in is a very good idea. If you find yourself in a position where you can not avoid the situation, but you are in a dominant position (inside of the BG's OODA loop), due to awareness, distraction, deception, metsubishi, or ballistic effect moving forward agressively and stopping the threat has it's place.

Movement needs to have purpose. Getting to cover would be the most obvious purpose. But many times cover is just not a reality. In this case, movement to acquire the adversaries flanks is an outstanding tactic. Moving forward to the obliques or using eliptical movement to try to get behind the adversary is as solid a tactic as there is.

If your natural reaction (just reacting, with no conscious thought does happen when you are behind in the reactionary curve) is to move one direction, that does not mean that you need to keep moving that direction. Direction can be changed with elipitcal movement or "cutback" type moves. The directional changes can come out of the visual input of the dynamics of the encounter. You need to be able to recognize the changes in your position in the OODA loop. Making adjustments to your movement due to this visual input is something that everyone should be aware of.

Moving rearward to the obliques while putting accurate hits on board is an outstanding skill to own. This can be accomplished quite easilly with the correct training and tools. The LEO's that we have taught in our Integrated Threat Focus courses have considered these skills "life saving skills" for officers that have been caught behind the reactionary curve. In a typical traffic stop, the officer cover, radio, long gun......down right security is behind him. To be able to fight their way back to the patrol car, while delivering accurate hits, can be an excellent tool to own.

Lateral movement is the best way to not get hit, but it is also the most difficult way to get hits. The dynamics of this displacement dictate this as fact. This is why the ability to make hits laterally, on a full run is the ultimate goal of Threat Focus courses.

Here is a little something that I wrote on movement a while back.

What am I physically capable of?


I believe that there should be continuity to ones movement. I feel that one should train to get hits through the entire movement spectrum. There is no doubt about the importance of "stand and deliver" skills. I have spent hundreds and hundreds of hours on this skill with tens of thousands of drawstrokes. If my body chooses this solution to the problem, that skill will be there.

I also see a need for very controlled movement that facilitates a precision shot on the move. This could include skills such as "just walk", side stepping (crab walk,) or even the old groucho (duck) walk. All three of these techniques have there place (however small they might be) and should be something that you can do on demand, if that demand arises. I practice head shots at logical distances with this type of movement.

I also see a need to be able to get hits with your toes pointing the direction that you are moving. This type of movement has your upper body working independent from your lower body, "like a turret of a tank." Toes point the direction you are headed, body turreted the direction that you are shooting. This type of movement brings in your bi-lateral skills. Shooting to the firing side can be done two handed to a certain point, then you need to go one handed. The possible speed of this movement can cover the full spectrum, from a walk, to a jog, to a stride, to a run, and finally to a sprint. This is where you find what you are physically capable of. This is where the limitations are pushed, and the standards are set.

Feints, jukes, cut backs and directional changes are also part of the movement skills set. One should explore there ability to use these skills and the limitations that different terrain/footing give you.

React as you need to react, move as you need to move, and see what you need to see to solve the problem that you are confronted with. If you train with these basic concepts, you will have covered the vast majority of the possible situations. In covering these situations, your body will chose, with confidence, the appropriate solution.
 

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Fluid Situational Response

I posted this in the Tactical Training section, it got very few views. Maybe it will do a little better here.
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In the world of the gun there are two types of responses to a life threatening event. The first and most popular is the conditioned response. A few examples of conditioned responses would be stand and deliver, the controlled pair, and to always make use of your sights. These are responses that we train into ourselves with the hope that when the SHTF we will default to our training and this programming will save the day.

While I was learning the Modern Techniques, (MT) I constantly questioned the logic behind many of the conditioned responses. To me, there was very little common sense attached to these conditioned responses. Even as a newbie I knew that I would never fight in this manner. It went away from the logic of all of my past experiences. As I trained and trained in the MT, I always held on to the realization the MT's were just going to be a foundation, a foundation that I built my fighting style on top of.

As I progressed, I began to incorporate what I thought a common sense fighting style would entail. I began to seek out people that thought as I did. My observations were confirmed again and again by highly respected "been there done that" guys, most notably a Federal Agent that went under the handle 7677.He would write posts of his real world experience that coincided with my thoughts and observations As my suspicions were verified, my training progressed into an area that very few people have explored. I began to embrace the concept of natural human response.

As I participated in and witnessed FOF encounters, it became very clear that the vast majority of the people that trained on a regular basis, cast aside their training when the action was fast and close. They would default to their natural human response. They solved problems at a sub-conscious level. I witnessed many people doing things that they had never been trained to do. After the encounter I would talk to them about their response. The majority actually did not know what they had done to solve the problem. As I told them what they did, they would often look at me in disbelief that they reacted in that manner. This furthered my interest in the subject, which lead me to my next level of enlightenment.

I call this level Fluid Situational Response. The concept is that you can incorporate your natural human response and your conditioned response and use them fluidly in the appropriate situation all along, what 7677 calls the fighting continuum. I know some of you will say that this does not stay within the KISS (keep it simple stupid) principle, or that it does not conform to Hicks law (the more options you have, the longer it will take to access an option). IMHO this is just not so. Hicks law applies to conditioned responses, that is why you should have a mastery of a few essential techniques. Hicks law does not apply to natural human response. There is no lag time to access these responses. Your body will choose the solution to the problem in a microsecond at a subconscious level. Accepting this to be fact opens up a world that very few have explored.

My training is now geared to my Fluid Situational Response. The response is dictated by time, distance, and where you find yourself in the reactionary curve. The position on the reactionary curve is the most important factor to your response. This is where natural human response of "fight or flight" takes over. IMHO you should embrace the "fight or flight" response and train within that response. One thing to keep in mind, when it comes to firearms "fight or flight" is also "fight and flight." The direction you move, the speed of your movement, the necessary visual input to maneuver and to comprehend the problem, the necessary visual input needed to make the hits, and the necessary visual input to recognize the situational changes are all dependent on your position on the reactionary curve inside of the 7677 fight continuum.

There is no doubt that at certain distances, going hands on before you access your handgun is the very best response. But for now, let's take a look at responses that are outside of hand to hand ranges.

If you have succeeded in being ahead in the reactionary curve due to awareness, deception, distraction, or metsubishi (throw something in the face of your adversary) you are in a dominant position. Conditioned responses are excellent for this situation. Stand and deliver, sighted fire, aggressively advancing to your 12:00 are all appropriate responses.

If you find yourself even in the reactionary curve, your response will have to be different. Conditioned responses may not get the job done as well as natural human response. The fight and flight response will kick in and you will want to get out of the kill zone. Move as you draw, put hits on the adversary as soon as you can using threat focused skills, work towards getting inside of the adversaries OODA loop by your movement, making hits, and acquiring his flank. Once you have turned the reactionary curve in your favor, embrace your fluid situational response and shift from a reactionary position to the dominant position and eliminate the threat.

If you find yourself well behind the reactionary curve, your response will have to change even more. A conditioned response could be suicide, your best hope is a natural human response. Brownies startle response can be use to your advantage and you must train to be comfortable within your startle response. Flight overrides fight, because you must survive the initial contact so that you can get into the fight. Explode out of the kill zone, move to cover if near or access the weapon on the sprint, put hits on the adversary using threat focus skills, look to turn the tide, if the situation changes, flow into the next appropriate response.

Once you embrace your Fluid Situational Response you will go places that you never thought were possible, Where your mind is the weapon and the gun is just an extension of your mind, and everything flows with no conscious thought.

The inevitable question arises, "what is more important, to get the hits or to not get hit?" The Fluid Situational Response answers that question. When you are ahead of the reactionary curve, it is more important to get the hits. You are in the dominate position....ELIMINATE THE THREAT! If you are even on the reactionary curve the importance are equal. Use a balance of speed (of movement) and accuracy to solve the problem. If you are behind in the reactionary curve it is more important to not get hit. Get out of the kill zone by "thinking move first." Sprint to cover if it is near or access your handgun on the sprint and put hits on your adversary. Always look to get inside of the adversaries OODA loop and progress through your Fluid Situational Response until you are either dominating the confrontation or have put yourself in the position to terminate the confrontation.
 

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We train to move off the line of force during the draw, both to the strong and weak sides. Never move back unless it’s to cover, because it’s too easy to lose your balance. Drawing from concealment will likely require the off hand to uncover and necessitate a one hand presentation. You can demonstrate to yourself how much easier movement is when the off hand is free instead of trying to maintain a two hand hold. An onrushing BG is probably going to be at very close range by the time your gun clears on target, and a five shot zipper takes surprisingly little time. Jelly Brice once sidestepped a shotgun blast during his draw and killed the BG before he could fire another blast. You have to do some “what if” thinking as you go through your unique daily routine. That said, movement to the knife or gun side of the adversary, followed by a forward component, will take away his strong moves and make his reactions delayed with regard to your position. Is this the only drill to practice? By no means. If 99% of situations present cover, use your common sense when designing your drills, and be safe on the range.

OUR TOP TEN RULES OF COVER

1. Try to know in advance where cover is, how good it is, and how to use it.
2. Get to it before the shooting starts.
3. Never expose consecutively from the same spot.
4. Duck out and back in to scan with minimum exposure.
5. Quickly lean out and cant the gun if necessary for 1 to 3 shots each time.
6. If you are comfortable, you are too visible. Resist looking to see if you score.
7. When your position is discovered, use concealment to change cover so that you can ambush your previous spot or ambush the route your opponent has to take.
8. Move opposite your last exposure only to get to better cover. Make your opponent do the moving in the open.
9. Stay away from cover that can chip or splinter. Stay away from corners when rounding them and lean out to view pieces one at a time, like slices of a pie. Alternate high and low lean outs while slicing the pie.
10. Keep scanning and orienting 360 degrees.
 

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I train to draw and step off line , then think and react to the threat.
 

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On a lighter note.

This thread reminded me of that comedy movie. Can't remember the name, but the guy is getting shot at and another guy is yelling:


Serpentine, Serpentine!'


Funny movie, IIRC.
 

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Fragman, I think that was "The Inlaws" with Peter Faulk. Absolutely hilarious! You just brought it back to my memory!!!
 
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