[G26Raven]

Most of the instructors who I have trained with have emphasized moving on the draw. This article presents that subject from a different perspective that I think is excellent.

A Felon on Firearms ? Law Officer

 

[Mike1956]

Interesting, relevant article. Thanks for posting it.

 

[graydude]

So in a nutshell, training to deal with suppressive fire vs. aimed fire is needed. Coming from a military perspective it's surprising that LE instructors apparently aren't already covering the differences, especially with narco-criminals bringing military training into the fight.

 

[jttar]

Well written excellent read. Thanks G26Raven.

 

[AzQkr]

Though I'll train others in skills that involve getting off line while drawing and shooting while moving, and do so, the mentors who had more real world experience in all manner of gun battles while at counter terr training [ both as civilians and mils ] were of this mindset, ---------------------------

Don't waste time dancing around, get down to business and to just draw and kill them. We train in the WW2 pistol combatives of 1/2; 3/4 and point shoulder pistol skills which make use of body indexing and stand and deliver skills, without moving off line. We then add movement [ side steps, obliquely moving away and toward the opponent [ while drawing and firing the same 3 WW2 core skills ]. This way, the student can choose which may be the appropriate response, stand and deliver or movement while drawing and firing.

Both moving and shooting and stand and deliver skills should be trained/ingrained in ones potential bag of possible responses.

 

[Mike1956]

Though I'll train others in skills that involve getting off line while drawing and shooting while moving, and do so, the mentors who had more real world experience in all manner of gun battles while at counter terr training [ both as civilians and mils ] were of this mindset, ---------------------------

Don't waste time dancing around, get down to business and to just draw and kill them. We train in the WW2 pistol combatives of 1/2; 3/4 and point shoulder pistol skills which make use of body indexing and stand and deliver skills, without moving off line. We then add movement [ side steps, obliquely moving away and toward the opponent [ while drawing and firing the same 3 WW2 core skills ]. This way, the student can choose which may be the appropriate response, stand and deliver or movement while drawing and firing.

Both moving and shooting and stand and deliver skills should be trained/ingrained in ones potential bag of possible responses.

It's much better, imo, to have a bunch of tricks up one's sleeve than to rely solely upon one or two well-learned and rehearsed techniques to cover all situations.

 

[G-man*]

I agree with this article on all levels.

Tge "joint cop", is the toughest job, and least appreciated in LE. They also have a job that in many aspects is far more dangerous than patrol.
And, they learn things in a year that take a patrol officer a career to figure out.

I could not agree more with the substance of the article. Having overheard many conversations of criminals talking among themselves about their crimes, it's obvious that they play by a different set of rules.

That is why I will never include the current tactical BS in to any of my teachings to students, or will step across the threshold of their everyday realities.

As the defender, you have to get it right the first time; everytime.
And doing the " Dancing Bannana" doesn't help accomplish this.

 

[G-man*]

It's much better, imo, to have a bunch of tricks up one's sleeve than to rely solely upon one or two well-learned and rehearsed techniques to cover all situations.

Not exactly with you here Mike.

A technique , properly trained should begat other techniques with no new starting points.

An effect technique is more than just one, but is still the same, except that it has no ending.

This is much more easily ingrained than trying to learn multiple techniques that start differently, and end differently.

An example;
I have mastered 8 different kicks. They all start the same way, all end the same way, but are switched in mid execution by a simple pivot of the foot or hip to strike as I intend.

Effective and usable techniques should be fluid in their evolution.

 

[Hodad]

It seems to me that the article makes a very good point. Most violent criminals, if not all, are at an immediate and significant advantage in a gunfight, because they don't care who gets hurt, shot, maimed or killed as long as they can get away.

It is what it is.

The only way that you can possibly prevent or avoid collateral damage to bystanders is to make sure that when you move you are moving with at least some idea of what is behind you when the bullets start flying. A lot to ask in a stress filled situation like a gunfight. Extreme examples of what I am talking about is don't move and put a day care center or a crowded playground in the line of fire.

As for me, I have always believed that in most cases aiming and firing at an upward angle (say from a prone or kneeling position) accomplishes two things: makes you a smaller target and sends missed shots or pass through shots up and away from innocent bystanders most of the time. Especially since everyone's inclination is to duck when they hear gunshots.

Obviously if there are occupied multi story buildings/houses around or if the entire NY Knicks basketball team is in the line of fire that strategy won't work nearly as well.

 

[Mike1956]

Not exactly with you here Mike.

A technique , properly trained should begat other techniques with no new starting points.

An effect technique is more than just one, but is still the same, except that it has no ending.

This is much more easily ingrained than trying to learn multiple techniques that start differently, and end differently.

An example;
I have mastered 8 different kicks. They all start the same way, all end the same way, but are switched in mid execution by a simple pivot of the foot or hip to strike as I intend.

Effective and usable techniques should be fluid in their evolution.

I don't think we are really disagreeing. Your kick analogy is an accurate one, IMO. The fundamentals of the draw and shot remain the same regardless of the pivots and moves incorporated along the way. A quarter-hip or high retention shot while moving demand the same grip, wrist lock, muzzle alignment and trigger control as the isosceles and perfect Weaver in order to be effective.

 

[G-man*]

I don't think we are really disagreeing. Your kick analogy is an accurate one, IMO. The fundamentals of the draw and shot remain the same regardless of the pivots and moves incorporated along the way. A quarter-hip or high retention shot while moving demand the same grip, wrist lock, muzzle alignment and trigger control as the isosceles and perfect Weaver in order to be effective.

Of course.....you understand I am relying heavily upon your intellect to figure out what the hell i am trying to say

 

[G26Raven]

In thinking about, what the article does not really address is the difference between someone coming at you with a knife or bat, compared to the person who stands in one place, pulls up a firearm, and begins to draw on you. Moving off the line of force is probably well chosen in a situation where someone is advancing on you with an edged or blunt weapon, but obviously may not be the best choice in facing an adversary armed with a firearm.

 

[9MMare]

One thing I agreed with for sure is that you have to commit, seriously, to whatever action, like movement, you're going to make. Half-hearted or signalling will spell failure. Move and draw and keep going.

OTOH, we all know that if you are in this situation, you are looking at a lethal confrontation. If you move, even just a step, you up your chances of them missing or catching them off-guard. We all know that it often takes more than one shot to stop someone (yourself in this case). We all know (I think) that it's unlikely to get out of a gunfight completely unscathed. And we all know that even close-up....misses are very common (dang that stress!). For LE as well.

So...my mantra remains "move!"

 

[Havok]

So in a nutshell, training to deal with suppressive fire vs. aimed fire is needed. Coming from a military perspective it's surprising that LE instructors apparently aren't already covering the differences, especially with narco-criminals bringing military training into the fight.

^this. Ive always been surprised when people think Im crazy for mentioning the importance of understanding the other side. Very good article though.

Ive never seen this figure 8 reload before. picturing it in my mind, as an officer running around in the shape of an 8 while tossing a new mag in his gun just seems funny. Is this something that is actually taught?

 

[xXxHeavy]

Hmmmm......witnesses on that fateful day at the OK Corral testified that Wyatt never moved and was the only one not hit....although supposedly had holes in his duster / coat.....I dunno.

 

[jmf552]

I follow the sublime teachings of His Holiness, the Dali Lama:

 

[G-man*]

Hmmmm......witnesses on that fateful day at the OK Corral testified that Wyatt never moved and was the only one not hit....although supposedly had holes in his duster / coat.....I dunno.

The theory behind that is that the movement of all those around him attracted the fire from the Cowboys.

 

[Mike1956]

Hmmmm......witnesses on that fateful day at the OK Corral testified that Wyatt never moved and was the only one not hit....although supposedly had holes in his duster / coat.....I dunno.

Ike Clanton moved, and he wasn't hit. Just sayin'.

 

[AzQkr]

At 5-6 feet, Jelly Bryce took a 1/2 side step and shot a BG bringing a firearm to bear on his person, upon entering a hotel room. Thing is, the BG didn't get a shot off before he's been head shot, so his 1/2 side step wasn't what gave him the edge in that encounter, it was his hand/draw speed.

At other times, Bryce crouched and used stand and deliver to dispatch many a BG in gun battles [ the majority of times from the accounts that have been written about ].

As I mentioned earlier, the mentors [ a former OSS officer trained in WW2 handgun skills ] had more experience in actual battles with handguns than most I've run into. His feelings and advise was to get the gun operational and get down to business without dancing around.

Hence the reason to train both stand and deliver and move while shooting skills. Movement for the sake of movement at every encounter isn't necessary or wise, nor is stand and deliver the winning game plan all the time. Make the wrong choice at the wrong time, you're in trouble.

 

[AzQkr]

Bill Jordan wrote if he was wearing a coat/jacket [ unbuttoned or inzipped ], he practiced taking a 1//2 step toward the non gun side which helped move the jacket away from his body and allowed faster access to his strong side belted pistol.

He was primarily a stand and deliver gunman, like Bryce, but knew there were times movement was beneficial [ although movement to these guys meant taking a side step off line, not doing the dance ].