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Heres the scenario. You are in a business and 2 gunmen enter. They are robbing at gunpoint. They are a dozen feet apart. Both are armed and the 1st is collecting cash, jewelry etc while the 2nd is covering the 1st and scanning the dozen or so patrons of the business. There is no chance you could even discretely dial 911 from your cell. But you could draw and get a shot to the body of one of the gunmen easily.

Here is my problem with this scenario:

1) I could probably shoot 1 but I or the people around me would get shot before I could return fire to the other gunman. There would be innocent casualties.

2) The gunmen might just rob and leave, harming no one.

3) The gunmen might shot innocent patrons regardless of resistance.

What would you do?
 

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Depends. Are they searching people to make sure they aren't holding back, or just collecting wallets? If you think they might find your weapon, it doesn't help to wait until they get to you. Decide to be aggressive enough, early enough.

If they are just demanding wallets and jewelry and you're well concealed, you could just go along with it. Multiple bad guys with their guns out vs. you without a gun out is not a good starting point for a gunfight. You need to at least be able to draw without being noticed to have a 'shot' at getting them both.
 

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Of course this all depends on where I am at when they start, and where they move around to.

Do they look like they know what they are doing, or just pointing guns willy-nilly at people? Is the guy watching really watching?

How's my adrenaline doing? Manageable, or the shakes setting in? Am I able to focus?

I'm a witness until they start searching (emptying pockets for people), shoot someone, or start herding people to a back room.
 

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Of course this all depends on where I am at when they start, and where they move around to.

Do they look like they know what they are doing, or just pointing guns willy-nilly at people? Is the guy watching really watching?

How's my adrenaline doing? Manageable, or the shakes setting in? Am I able to focus?

I'm a witness until they start searching (emptying pockets for people), shoot someone, or start herding people to a back room.
+1 Best way to go IMO.
 

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witness
but keep keep an eye on the sheep
as one could be the 3rd BG
or a sheepdog
that you might be able to help play tag a BG with
 

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Shoot when lose of life or discovery of your weapon is imminent. When the SHTF in this scenario a LOT of lead will be flying. You will have only momentary momentum which will quickly shift back to the BG's favor. A man hit COM can still fight if he is determined.
 

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First I'm going to be a good witness, but last is being a target. Somewhere in between action might be called for...whatever happens, happens...I want to go home alive.:yup:

One has to control the adrenaline flow as well as possible...it is going to flow.:gah:
The situation is not a good one when two armed individuals get the drop on a crowd. The good thing is the crowd, lots of people with tables, pillars, desks, and walls can be your friend...think about putting something between you and the guns, if possible.:smoke23:

Remember, when/if you start shooting, the cops will not know who YOU are when they arrive...be very careful. The 'almost' last thing I want to do is draw my weapon...the last thing is die, so when 'push comes to shove'...I'll do what I have to do, successfully I hope, because of alertness.:icon_neutral:

The best thing I have going for me is being alert.:hand10: Most sheep in the bank won't even know what's happening until it's too late. I watch everyone entering the bank...everyone. My eyes and senses are always on alert. I look for exit plans and realistically think about the possibilities each and every time I enter my bank or any other store...but that's just me.:blink:
 

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Here's the scenario;

You are in a business and 2 gunmen enter.

I've been caught off guard? Not likely, but possible

They are robbing at gunpoint.

That means 'most probably' they will or could possibly discover I'm carrying.... so... I'm deemed a threat either way

They are a dozen feet apart. Both are armed and the 1st is collecting cash, jewelry etc while the 2nd is covering the 1st and scanning the dozen or so patrons of the business.

If the first is carrying a bag? collecting cash cash and jewelery.... he's not paying attention to what's around him, so I direct my 'primary' attention to the second guy.

There is no chance you could even discretely dial 911 from your cell.

Understood

But you could draw and get a shot to the body of one of the gunmen easily.

Your scenario says I can get a shot off... and the Law in my state says I CAN shoot if apparent deadly consequences or serious bodily injury are imminent to myself or others (my paraphrasing). Therefore I WOULD draw (when I best could, considering cover, bystanders, back drop and locations of the BG's) and double tap the second guy (hopefully he would be the one easiest hit) One shot to COM and one to the head and immediately cover the other guy demanding he drop his weapon! Should their be any aggressive movement on his behalf I would regrettably be compelled do the same thing to him as the first....

Here is my problem with this scenario:

1) I could probably shoot 1 but I or the people around me would get shot before I could return fire to the other gunman. There would be innocent casualties.

Are you sure? 4 shots (aimed) in 1.5-2 seconds is absolutely doable even under stress for any of us even semi-practiced (we are atleast semi-practiced right? or we wouldn't be carrying right?) and when the covering shooter is hit (my first target), the bag man has to recognize what happened, decide his action after hearing my command, react and either move/shoot or stop, all in less than one (1) second. He would be down (shot) by then (under your scenario) and my statement of 4 shots in less than 2 seconds, which means (should I not want to warn the 'bagman' to drop his gun; it would be double tap first guy (1 second) and 1 second to do same to bag man. I AM not Rambo and NOT the a professional, but I do train and know I can do this easily (the time part) and accurately (practice)

2) The gunmen might just rob and leave, harming no one.

True, but he's collecting cash and Jewelry, meaning I will have to reach for my wallet and move on of my weapons to get it..... so........ not good! could I do it without him seeing my gun and let him leave? MAYBE! but not likely!

3) The gunmen might shot innocent patrons regardless of resistance.

That's the problem........ they (BG's) came into the business with gun drawn, for me to wait to see what happens? That, is exactly what causes innocent people to die unnecessarily.

The BG's are counting on NO ONE doing anything! that's the idea of coming in with guns drawn, to intimidate and threaten and cause "the sheep" to freeze and acquiesce. Then, they can do what they want.....!!! including shooting any and all if they wish. Will they? I don't know! But I for one.... will not give them the chance IF I have a chance to do anything about it!

Something similar happened to me some years ago, and also to my daughter, so been there!
Just me!
 

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If BG #2 is collecting wallets/cash/jewelry his hands are full and he isn't holding a weapon,I'm shooting BG#1,before BG#2 can react he's getting double tapped
 

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Heres the scenario. You are in a business and 2 gunmen enter. They are robbing at gunpoint. They are a dozen feet apart. Both are armed and the 1st is collecting cash, jewelry etc while the 2nd is covering the 1st and scanning the dozen or so patrons of the business. There is no chance you could even discretely dial 911 from your cell. But you could draw and get a shot to the body of one of the gunmen easily.

Here is my problem with this scenario:

1) I could probably shoot 1 but I or the people around me would get shot before I could return fire to the other gunman. There would be innocent casualties.

2) The gunmen might just rob and leave, harming no one.

3) The gunmen might shot innocent patrons regardless of resistance.

What would you do?

These kinds of posts disturb me. CHL/CCW doesn't mean law enforcement.

I'd probably do what I was told and only pull my gun if I thought I was in danger. I am not going to be a hero. As sad as it is to see innocents being targeted or killed by a BG, my life and my family's life is still more important especially when you consider all the could go wrong and the legal implications of that.
 

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Florida Rules

  1. I am in a place where I have a legal right to be.
    [*]I would be meeting force with equal (deadly) force.
    [*]To stop an immediate forceable felony.

Tactically, I would take out Robber 2 as soon as practical, then begin firing at Robber 1.


As soon as the situation after firing commences allows, I would get 911 on the line.

My goal would be to take charge of the situation as it related to me. I am not trying to be a hero, just make the most decisive and quickest moves I can make to make myself as safe as possible. I can not assume that the robber(s) will take the money and just run...
 

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First scenario, assuming they don't notice me.

If they are disguised the chances they will eliminate all witnesses is low. So I would not draw.

If they are not disguised the chances of them shooting witnesses is much greater. So I would draw and double tap the guard, then double tap the collector. Then keep shooting at the highest perceived threat until they are stopped or I am.


Second scenario, if they can see me well.

If they are disguised the chances they will eliminate all witnesses is low. So I would not draw.

If they are not disguised the chances of them shooting witnesses is much greater. So I would not try to draw on them unless I was sure they were going to shoot or started shooting, or if they took their eyes of me long enough for me to be pretty sure I could have a good chance of success.

Bobo
 

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These are always interesting threads like’ any of us really know what we’ll actually do if the armchair turns into real life.

Anyway, my fantasy reaction is to do nothing, unless I’m ‘personally’ compromised. If the guys don’t approach me, direct me or physically threaten me, I’m good with laying low. However, if I sense otherwise, then I’ll take the shot(s) and hope for the best
.
 

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Heres the scenario. You are in a business and 2 gunmen enter. They are robbing at gunpoint. They are a dozen feet apart. Both are armed and the 1st is collecting cash, jewelry etc while the 2nd is covering the 1st and scanning the dozen or so patrons of the business. There is no chance you could even discretely dial 911 from your cell. But you could draw and get a shot to the body of one of the gunmen easily.
I respectfully submit that there is more we don't know about this situation then that which we do (I say this at the same time as I fully recognize the difficulty in describing any hypothetical scenario).

For instance we do not know the attitude of the "gunmen"; calm, agitated, yelling, nervous, etc. Also what are they saying? Are they getting more agitated/threatening or is the situation more or less stable? How are they armed? Do they appear to be wearing body armor? Do they appear to be well trained?

More importantly, what is the orientation of innocent bystanders to one another, you, and to the shooters; do innocents include members of your family and are they in more immediate danger then you are, are other innocents directly in the line of fire (including down range), within arms reach, etc? Have we sought cover or concealment successfully or were we caught as "deer in the headlights?"

If we are applying OODA, we would/should collect the foregoing facts in the very first seconds of the incident. Since shooting has not started, we would all things being equal be better off waiting and observing carefully - for now - readying ourselves for the instant that drawing our weapon, aiming it and firing it to stop the threat are necessary. In that light, we would do well to continuosly evaluate each BG in an effort to determine which presented the most significant threat to us and the other by standers.

Perhaps the most important thing scenarios like this do for us, is to train us to evaluate what we don't know but need to know - to train us how to run through the OODA loop and how to determine when we have enough information or have evluated enough potential courses of action to make a reasonably good tactical decision.
 

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I have not heard that mentioned on any threads for a loooooong time.

For those not familiar with the OODA Loop Here you go;

John Boyd - OODA Loop Theory
 

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drawing a weapon and turning a robbery into a gunfight is liable to create a bloodbath and i for one am not in the mood to explain to the police or my lawyer why i decided to create a more dangerous situation and the probable loss of life if it was possible i did not have to...

until there is a viable threat of violence i am going to be collecting as much information as my brain will carry...i believe regardless of how the situation plays i will have the element of surprize in the event i decide to draw my firearm but i will not make that choice until i see no other options...

even an inkling of herding or search will probably make that decision for me...i dont care how much you practice or how good a shot you think you are there are going to be variables that you have no control over including the reactions of other patrons when you display your weapon...this is not a range and you are going to surprize and panic everyone in the room when you hit the bang switch...there are no definates....the plan changes as soon as it begins...
 

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The odds are against you. Plus, are they robbing individuals, or the customers? If they're only taking the store's property, let them go. It's not worth the risk to the customers to start a shootout and the store owner probably has insurance to cover his losses.

Now, if they act to shoot a customer(s), then it's time to act, not only for your safety, but for all the others. Take down the backup first.
 
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