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Below is something that I just typed up. I apologize for it's roughness as it is a first draft and not even proofread...but it is time for supper and I thought I would ask you all to read it and give me your comments- Please read it in it's entirety as it is long but you need to read it all to understand my thoughts.



"My second amendment rights and how they pertain to my place of worship.




The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is the part of the United States Bill of Rights that protects a right to keep and bear arms. This amendment was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights

I do not intend to make this into an argument about which we debate the whys and hows of this amendment; but instead to discuss how this impacts my ability to do so in a place of worship (church).

I choose to exercise my right to bear arms and do so lawfully at all times. I am a lawful concealed pistols license holder in the state of Michigan an do carry a pistol concealed wherever it is lawful for me to do so. I do so as I feel it is the most effective means for me to insure the safety of my family, loved ones, general public and myself. I do not do this as a enforcer of the law, but simply to as protection against those who choose to not follow the law. I take this right seriously and exercise it along with hundred of thousands of my fellow statesmen.

It may seem “Christian” to say that one is trusting in God for protection, and we all must, but it is tempting God if we do not take the measures that He has laid out for us in the Bible. David wrote in Psalm 46:1 that God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. This did not conflict with praising the God "Who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle" (Psalm 144:1). Scripture teaches us that we must prepare and work, yet we must trust the outcome to God.

Deuteronomy teaches us that vengeance is the Lord's. I do not carry a weapon for vengeance, I do so for self defense and for the defense of others from evil doers harm. In Exodus 20 we read that in the sixth commandment we are told that we shall not murder, Exodus 22 teaches that killing is justified when in defense. These two passages to not contradict each other, but they compliment each other. Exodus 22:2 “If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed.” This is clear testimony to the biblical stance on self-defense.
In Luke 22:36 Jesus tells His disciples “he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one”. Jesus' telling his disciples too carry a sword is a clear way of His requirement that they have means to defend themselves as the sword was the most effective tool of the day for doing so. Today the most effective weapon for self defense in close quarters is a handgun. The sword being the sidearm of the day is also demonstrated in Nehemiah 4:18 “Every one of the builders had his sword girded at his side as he built.” Today, I chose to gird my pistol at my side as protection of my self, my household and my neighbor.

“But church is a place of worship and not a place for weapons/guns, even if they are concealed.” This is an argument that I have heard form some. I ask in return, “Where does the bible say that am not to arm myself in a place of worship? Do those wishing to do us harm believe that church is “No place for guns”? Of course not! This thought is ridiculous and just plain taken advantage of by those who wish to do us harm.

November, 2008- A man in New Jersey sought out his estranged wife while she was at church, killing her and another man.

In Maryville, Ill, March, 2009- A man walked to the front of church, fired four shots at the pastor, killing him. When his gun jammed he stabbed himself and two others while church members tackled him.

July, 2008 Knoxville, Tn- A gunman killed 2 church members and injured several others.

Colorado Springs, Colorado. December, 2007- A 24 year old man (who had been raised in the church and who's parents were both devout Christians) shot and killed 4 people at 2 church locations 65 miles apart. His spree was ended when an woman with a concealed weapon took action, ending the killing. The killer was said to have “hated Christians”.

The list of church shootings is a long one and would fill pages. The future list would be made shorter if more private citizens armed themselves for defense from those looking to do them harm. Why must those with license to carry concealed weapons get permission from church leaders to do so in some states? This is simply due to legislators trying to appease those who wish to squash the second amendment in our Bill of Rights. What can be done about this? Church leader should give permission to those who have the legal right to carry a concealed weapon.

Where has this worked in the past? EVERYWHERE it has been tried! Every time we allow guns to be taken away from the law abiding citizen...crime goes up! Not just any crime, but crime involving guns! Criminals have no problem disobeying the laws taking guns out of their hands, this is what makes them criminal. Every time the laws have been changed putting more guns in the hands of law abiding citizens...crime goes down! This is simple logic, clouded by emotion and skewed by our imagination. But the fact still remains- When we choose to arm ourselves as Christ told his disciples to do, we make our lives and the lives of our neighbors safer.

Signed,
An armed, Christian citizen of these wonderful United States of America.

GOD BLESS AMERICA!"
 

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Well said, I like it...
 

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Well written.

I run into a number of people who throw scripture at me (out of context, of course) as an argument against Christians carrying at all, let alone at church. The most common are:

Turn the other cheek: A command to not be ruled by your own pride when insulted, not when your life is genuinely threatened.

Thou Shalt Not Kill: The original Hebrew of course is properly translated as "you shall not murder." Big BIG difference.

Shouldn't you trust God to protect you?: I manage what's within my control (arming myself, being aware of my surroundings, looking both ways before crossing the street) and trust God to manage the things beyond my control or knowledge. Expecting God to take care of every detail is foolishness, not trust. Otherwise I would sit at home and do nothing, "trusting" God to deliver food, clothing, electricity to my God-delivered doorstep.
 

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One of the ways God protects us is by giving us the tools we need to prosper. It's our job to know the difference between a gift from God and a temptation to do evil. It's also our choice how we use that which God gave us.

"To each is given a set of rules
A soul to save, and a bag of tools
And each will fashion, ere life is flown
A stumbling block, or a stepping stone"
 

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Thank you for taking the time to pen this. It is well stated and I will, with your permission, share it with as many as I can.
 

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Well written, and the rationale for carrying in church is well laid out.

However, the Second Amendment has absolutely nothing to do with the church. The Second Amendment restricts the government and not private entities like businesses and churches.

Matt
 

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Discussion Starter #12
This is my second version...PLEASE help me with proofreading. I wanted to keep it to two pages and I dare add more content. Any suggestions? Anyting I should add from a BIBLICAL perspective?



"My Second Amendment Rights And How They Pertain To My Place Of Worship

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is the part of the United States Bill of Rights that protects a right to keep and bear arms. This amendment was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights

I do not intend to make this into an argument about which we debate the whys and hows of this amendment; but instead to discuss how this impacts my ability to do so in my place of worship (church).

I have chosen to exercise my right to bear arms and do so lawfully at all times. I am a lawful concealed pistols license holder in the state of Michigan an do carry a pistol concealed wherever it is lawful for me to do so. I do so as I feel it is the most effective means for me to insure the safety of my family, loved ones, neighbor and myself. I do not do this as a enforcer of the law, but simply as protection against those who choose not to obey the law. I take this right seriously and exercise it along with hundred of thousands of my fellow statesmen.

It may seem “Christian” to say that I should trust in God alone for protection and do, but it is tempting God if we do not follow the measures that He has laid out for us in the Bible. David wrote in Psalm 46:1 that God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. This did not conflict with praising the God "Who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle" (David-Psalm 144:1). Scripture teaches us that we must prepare and work, yet we must trust the outcome to God.

Deuteronomy teaches us that vengeance is the Lord's. I do not carry a weapon for vengeance, I do so for self defense and for the defense of others from evil doers harm. Exodus 20 teaches in the sixth commandment that we are not to murder, Exodus 22 teaches that killing is justified when in defense. These two passages to not contradict each other, but they compliment each other. Exodus 22:2 “If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed.” This is clear testimony to the biblical stance on self-defense. The sanctity of life is a common thread throughout scripture and I strive to protect that sanctity to the best of my abilities.

In Luke 22:36 Jesus tells His disciples “He who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one”. Jesus' telling His disciples to carry a sword is a clear way of His requirement that they have means to defend themselves as the sword was the most effective tool of the day for doing so. Today the most effective weapon for self defense in close quarters is a handgun. The sword being the sidearm of the day is also demonstrated in Nehemiah 4:18 “Every one of the builders had his sword girded at his side as he built.” Today, I chose to gird my pistol at my side as protection for my self, my household and my neighbor.

“But church is a place of worship and not a place for guns, even if they are concealed.” This is an argument that I have heard form some. I ask in return, “Where does the bible say that am not to arm myself in a place of worship? Do those wishing to do us harm believe that church is “No place for guns”? Of course not! This thought is ridiculous and just plain taken advantage of by those who wish to do us harm. Church is a place for worship, yet a place that I should be prepared for the evils of this world.

November, 2008- A man in New Jersey sought out his estranged wife while she was at church, killing her and another man.

In Maryville, Ill, March, 2009- A man walked to the front of church, fired four shots at the pastor, killing him. When his gun jammed he stabbed himself and two others while church members tackled him.

March, 2005 - Wisconsin - Living Church of God - 7 Churchgoers Killed - shooter concluded by killing himself

July, 2008 Knoxville, Tn- A gunman killed 2 church members and injured several others.

August, 2007 - Missouri - First Congregational Church- Pastor and 2 worshipers killed.

May, 2006 - Louisiana - Jesus Christ Church - 4 Killed including shooter's wife

May, 2007- Moscow, Idaho – A standoff between police and a suspect of the shooting of 3 people in a Presbyterian church ended with three dead, including one police officer.

February, 2006 - Michigan - Zion Hope Missionary Baptist Church - 2 People Killed - shooter, who reportedly went to the church looking for his girlfriend, later killed himself.

Colorado Springs, Colorado. December, 2007- A 24 year old man (who had been raised in the church and who's parents were both devout Christians) shot and killed 4 people at 2 church locations 65 miles apart. His spree was ended when an woman with a concealed weapon took action, ending the killing. The killer was said to have “hated Christians”.

The list of church shootings is a long one and could fill pages. The future list would be made shorter if more private citizens armed themselves for defense from those looking to do them harm. Why must those with license to carry concealed weapons get permission from church leaders to do so in some states? This is simply due to legislators trying to appease those who wish to squash the second amendment in our Bill of Rights. What can be done about this? Church leader should give permission to those who have the legal right to carry a concealed weapon.

Where has this worked in the past? EVERYWHERE it has been tried! Every time we allow guns to be taken away from the law abiding citizen...crime goes up! Not just any crime, but crime involving guns! Criminals have no problem disobeying the laws taking guns out of their hands, this is what makes them criminal. Every time the laws have been changed, putting more guns in the hands of law abiding citizens...crime goes down! This is simple logic, clouded by emotion and skewed by our imagination. But the fact still remains- When we choose to arm ourselves as Christ told his disciples to do, we make our lives and the lives of our neighbors safer.

Signed,
An armed, Christian citizen of these wonderful United States of America
God Bless America!"
 

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Regrettably crime does not stop at the church doors.
It is a wisely lead church that takes appropriate measures.
I almost pitty the poor fool who targets ours... almost.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Well written, and the rationale for carrying in church is well laid out.

However, the Second Amendment has absolutely nothing to do with the church. The Second Amendment restricts the government and not private entities like businesses and churches.

Matt
I am NOT trying to say that it does. But establish how the church should not be a place where I can't exersize my 2A rights.

I understand that private entities (churches included) have the right to limit my right to bear arms...but should they (churches)? This is what I wanted to lay out.
 

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I agree with you in principle, but are you not trying to enforce man's law where GOD's law prevails? GOD's law is interpreted in the Church by your church leaders. It could be argued that you seek government control (USC) in a church.

Just as you may not agree with the law in society, you are still bound by it. The same can be argued for the church as it pertains to GOD's law (as interpreted by the church leaders.) I don't believe weapons were allowed in the temple, so there is a precedent.

I have encountered this dilemma and have since left the church and now worship with a small prayer group in our homes (as it was done in the original Christian church!) Don't confuse Church and faith, they are not the same thing.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I agree with you in principle, but are you not trying to enforce man's law where GOD's law prevails? GOD's law is interpreted in the Church by your church leaders. It could be argued that you seek government control (USC) in a church.

Just as you may not agree with the law in society, you are still bound by it. The same can be argued for the church as it pertains to GOD's law (as interpreted by the church leaders.) I don't believe weapons were allowed in the temple, so there is a precedent.

I have encountered this dilemma and have since left the church and now worship with a small prayer group in our homes (as it was done in the original Christian church!) Don't confuse Church and faith, they are not the same thing.

I respectfully dissagree. God's laws superceed man's law. It is in not the other way around. I would like to know where you have found in the Bible where weapons were not allowed in the church. Also, the temple was very different from what a Church is today. Christ's coming changed this.
 

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The Constitution recognizes the right to self-defense as "God-given." In other words, it is secular recognition of a divine right. Since that time, divine rights have been re-labeled as "human rights" but the general idea is still there: Rights to which you are entitled merely by being human.

Weapons were frequently carried in the temple because they were a common part of everyday life. Nobody was "horrified" to see a sword or knife dangling from someone's belt, and you wouldn't have mortified parents shielding their children's eyes or any other silly behavior that we might see today.

In the temple (prior to the resurrection) there was a curtain, behind which only the high priests were allowed to go. It was considered the "presence of God" behind this curtain and unauthorized personnel could expect a permanent smiting for daring to intrude. The entrances to the space behind the curtain were blocked by sword-wielding temple guards. Approaching one of these guards was a very, very bad idea, and trying to get past them would have been your last living act.

The possession of weapons in a holy structure (across many cultures, by the way) has been the norm for centuries. It's only in the last 75 years or so (in American culture) that church has been considered an "inappropriate place" for firearms; and it's still not a unanimous position among all churches and congregations.
 

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You have no idea as to just how carefully I chose my words. It conveyed my opinion clearly and I wished him well at the end.

Choosing to be a sheep in any sense of the word clearly falls within the definition of "to each his own" especially since this particular choice increases the likelihood of being in a violent encounter. My use of sheep had a double meaning. Yes as a clueless follower but also as The Sheep of God's Pasture (John 10:27-28) The true believer would only see the second meaning but you felt it was condescending. Maybe you need to re-evaluate your belief system since a simple comment shouldn't be enough to rattle you and you clearly fell in the trap instead of the hands of your lord. Have a great Sunday morning graze.

But then this place is all about the second amendment, not the first isn't it?
I found both posts condescending, insulting, and off-topic.
 

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I am NOT trying to say that it does. But establish how the church should not be a place where I can't exersize my 2A rights.
It's called individual state laws...MI problem, FL no problem...other states vary.:wave:

Note: Nice letter, but it does not change the laws of individual states.
 
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