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Discussion Starter #1
Okay, here is the situation: I'm instructing the sister of my best friend (for free, lol) in firearms safety and with an eye to getting her the very first gun she will have ever owned. We're talking here of a CLASSIC New YAWK liberal who in her 50-60+ years has never held or even liked guns. Now I have created a raving fanatic after just a half dozen classes and trips to the range. She does NOT have much upper body strength including strength in her fingers. I'm working on a mild exercise regimen to remedy that. Her brother (my best friend) is a retired decorated SpecOps officer. She originally asked HIM to teach her and HE made her come to me.

I started her on a .22LR SA. Then we went to a 9mm. Beretta M92, but she couldn't handle the DA first shot. So we moved to a Browning Hi-Power and stayed there. She got very good. She is also good with the Glock M19. I steadily and consistently corrected errors in technique and showed her some tricks with triggers....I want her to go as far as she can go in being competent with all forms and actions. However the NEXT step vexes me. Has anybody fired a Sig Pro .40? What is the recoil and muzzle jump like? I know this is very subjective, But I'd like some feedback on intermediate steps to try with her. She didn't like my Glock M27 or the Glock M23. IOW, I need some suggestions on 40's....later we'll move to the 45 and still later, if she wants, the 41 & 44's magnum and otherwise.

I guess I'm looking for a 40 with a fairly light DA trigger pull and a full sized grip for a slender female hand that's not overly big....Is that too much to ask?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Suggestions sought...

Bud White said:
I would stay away from the 40's most women i know find most of them uncomfortable to shoot
Why? Because of barrel whip and recoil? I should say this lady is an extreme feminist and a strong zionist. She is very determined to be successful and I very much think if I said words to the effect of "Lil Girl, you don't want to do that...." I'd get a swift kick in a very tender area! I think, I would deserve it, too. I taught my daughter to shoot at age 10. She can now handle ALL of my guns and has as her very own a Ruger SP101 .357mag.
 

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I'm not too experienced in any of this, but I am curious what she's getting out of this, and what she hopes to? In other words, it sounds like you're covering just about all of the calibers, but for what purpose? If she's taken to target/range shooting, perhaps something that's mild and cost effective to become really proficient with? Is she going to buy a gun? Is defense an issue at all? I've shot everything from .44's to .22's but I also find a .40 to be a little on the sharp side. Has she shot a 9mm yet? Just curious and i wish I had a personal shooting coach!
Gideon
 

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yes the barrel whip and the recoil some will shoot it but not many rounds my old lady will shoot 44 super redhawk vs a 40 smith my uncle has and prefers the 44
 

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May I suggest a Kahr 9m/m? I am very impressed with the trigger and the recoil of this gun. I was teaching a young lady who is very fragile and she decided that this was the gun for her. The grip frame is very comfortable and the trigger is a consistent double action pull, which in my opinion is better than the Glock.
The quality of these guns is so good that Wilson Combat is doing custom work on them.
I think the 40 is a great caliber but as noted by TAPSCCW in another post, the caliber seems to be hard on guns and it is a very high pressure cartridge. I am not a particular advocate of the 9m/m but it is adequate when used properly, (meaning good hits). Ammo is also much cheaper for the 9 than the 40.
Just my opinion for a gun to fill your specs.
 

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I too would think that one of the (many) 9mm platforms could serve very well - not to mention opening up a cheaper option for good and high volume practice.

Overall tho - I'll take any ''conversion'' as good news! :smile:
 

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Discussion Starter #8
acparmed said:
May I suggest a Kahr 9m/m? I am very impressed with the trigger and the recoil of this gun. I was teaching a young lady who is very fragile and she decided that this was the gun for her. The grip frame is very comfortable and the trigger is a consistent double action pull, which in my opinion is better than the Glock.
The quality of these guns is so good that Wilson Combat is doing custom work on them.
I think the 40 is a great caliber but as noted by TAPSCCW in another post, the caliber seems to be hard on guns and it is a very high pressure cartridge. I am not a particular advocate of the 9m/m but it is adequate when used properly, (meaning good hits). Ammo is also much cheaper for the 9 than the 40.
Just my opinion for a gun to fill your specs.
You know, all that you say.....it's not the first time that I've heard it and I'm going to suggest she try a Kahr 9mm. In fact, I'm going to cut and paste your post and send it to my buddy (the brother).
 

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ExSoldier762 said:
You know, all that you say.....it's not the first time that I've heard it and I'm going to suggest she try a Kahr 9mm. In fact, I'm going to cut and paste your post and send it to my buddy (the brother).
When you hear it from one person, ok. When you hear it from several, you should maybe give it a try.

One other note on the Kahr. Go with a steel frame not the polymer, it will have less felt recoil and less muzzle flip.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Motivations

Gideon said:
I'm not too experienced in any of this, but I am curious what she's getting out of this, and what she hopes to? In other words, it sounds like you're covering just about all of the calibers, but for what purpose? If she's taken to target/range shooting, perhaps something that's mild and cost effective to become really proficient with? Is she going to buy a gun? Is defense an issue at all? I've shot everything from .44's to .22's but I also find a .40 to be a little on the sharp side. Has she shot a 9mm yet? Just curious and i wish I had a personal shooting coach!
Gideon
If you read my initial post you'll see what she has and has not fired. She is currently getting pretty good with my 9mm Browning Hi-Power.

I've known her brother since 1972 when we were in high school. Back then, HE taught ME to handle a gun! But I've come a long way since then. Now OBI WAN....the student is the teacher...literally!

Her motivations are typical of a liberal who suddenly realizes she's been LIED TO about guns. I suspect the fact that her brother is a decorated SpecOps warrior have something to do with it, but I really think that 911 was the ultimate wakeup call for her. She wants to feel "empowered" and I'm sure self defense has something to do with it, but one step at a time. Her brother also wants her to be able to pick up ANY weapon and be safe and competent in handling said weapon.

There is also the fact that she lost another brother to cancer LAST WEEK (although it was three years in coming) but she wants to get closer to her remaining brother and he is quite expert in that arena. Lieutenant Colonel of Army Special Forces (retired)....ummmmmm yup.
 

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ExSoldier,

I'm not the most experienced guy in the world, but if you are looking at the .40 as the next "step up" for her (that's the way I interpreted your first post), why not skip it and just go to the .45? IMHO, the perceived recoil of a 1911 is less than the recoil of a lot of "lesser" caliber guns. Plus, if she's comfortable with the Hi-Power, then she knows the single-action platform.

I shot a friend's Glock 27 recently, and found it a little on the uncomfortable side. I do most of my shooting with a USP .40 compact. But if I had to pick a gun to "shoot all day," it would most definitely be my 1911. It shoots like an old pair of jeans feels.

By the way, hats off to your friend for sending his sister to you. While he is no doubt well-versed in firearms, sometimes being "family" can have a negative effect on the teaching process. It sounds to me like the two of you are doing a very nice job of properly introducing this woman to the joy of shooting.

SSKC
 

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Discussion Starter #12
From 9mm to 45?

SSKC said:
ExSoldier,

I'm not the most experienced guy in the world, but if you are looking at the .40 as the next "step up" for her (that's the way I interpreted your first post), why not skip it and just go to the .45? IMHO, the perceived recoil of a 1911 is less than the recoil of a lot of "lesser" caliber guns. Plus, if she's comfortable with the Hi-Power, then she knows the single-action platform.

I shot a friend's Glock 27 recently, and found it a little on the uncomfortable side. I do most of my shooting with a USP .40 compact. But if I had to pick a gun to "shoot all day," it would most definitely be my 1911. It shoots like an old pair of jeans feels.

By the way, hats off to your friend for sending his sister to you. While he is no doubt well-versed in firearms, sometimes being "family" can have a negative effect on the teaching process. It sounds to me like the two of you are doing a very nice job of properly introducing this woman to the joy of shooting.

SSKC
I've thought about that, too. Since we're going to the range in about an hour I think I'll take your advice and take my wife's 45 Commander along. I'm a bit concerned at the state of her upper body strength and the weight of the gun, but it's not too far a stretch up from the Browning and the kick of a 1911 is much more of a "push" than the sharp snap of a .40. Thanks! I'll try it and let you know.
 

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Sounds like you got her off to a good start. If she she shoots a 9mm well stick to it. Remember if you will do the gun will do! I agree with armedacp on the Kahr MK9, all stainless, nice trigger, easy to carry. It does have a short grip so she might like the K9 or E9 better. My lady has both along wih her Robar Glock 19. She has a 3 1/2 connector and a New York trigger spring in it and it does well. She might also consider the Advantage 22 conversion for it to practice. Keep her going in the right direction. There is nothing better than a converted liberal. Usually we call some gun owners that have made the change "a liberal that was mugged" God Bless Her we need more like her. I'd stay away from traditional double action guns due the problems with transition. Good luck!
 

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I would suggest that she stick with whichever semiauto she shoots the best and has the least difficulty manipulating the slide.

No sense in warming her up to a diminutive Kahr, or a .40 or .45 if she can't manipulate the slide to clear a malfunction...
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Range Report

SSKC said:
I'm happy to help. I hope it works out well. Let us know.

SSKC
Okay, just in and here's what happened. We had the indoor range all to ourselves for the most part. Since it had been a few days, I started her out on the Browning just to insure she was still "in tune" with what I've taught her. She went thru 50rds of 9mm at a range of 7-10 yards starting with aimed fire and slowly working up to controlled pairs and then the fast HAMMER. Kept all rounds COM.

Then I moved her up to my wife's Commander 45. But I moved the target a bit closer, perhaps 5 yards. Once again as I ALWAYS DO, I modelled the behavior/technique I wanted to see, first. I squeezed off a magazine into the cranial vault of the man shaped target. Then I put one of those adhesive Shoot-n-See overlays on the COM and had her try the 45. I was holding my breath and watching her like a hawk for unsafe actions. But she was calm and collected and she LOVED THE 1911! Not all rounds COM but even her flyers were well grouped. Those just indicate an unfamiliarity with the new weight of the gun and being a teeeeny bit recoil conscious. Now all she needs is practice. She wants to stay with the 45 and that's what we'll do.

I want her to get her hand and upper body strength up to a point where she can fire a DA or DAO easily. That's doable for sure. She is extremely determined to succeed and has a great attitude! I'd like to see her handle a Sig Sauer P220 or P245 or perhaps the new Ruger P345. I also understand that Kahr is coming out with a 45 and then of course there is the option of going to the ParaOrdnance LDA 1911 series....in full or Commander size of course.

SHE DID EXTREMELY WELL TODAY AND I'M VERY PROUD OF HER PERFORMANCE!!!!
"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child might have peace."
--- Thomas Paine
 

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Excellent!

That's great! Sounds like you are both excited and having a great time. I'm glad it worked out.

SSKC
 

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Brother, if I had a chance, I'd let her try an STI Trojan in 9mm. Good cartridge in a great platform: all steel, 5" 1911. Can be ordered with slim grips or standard, depending on grip of her hands, fixed or adj sights. A good trigger will make learning so much easier as it directly relates to good hits (positive, visible reinforcement). I love mine. My wife likes it so much more than the revolver she'd been using. She really likes the 1911 platform, just not the .45acp. Also, based on what you're saying about her hand strength, the light recoil spring makes it easy to charge.
I hope this helps,

Dan
 

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How about a Smith 4040PD or a 4013TSW? the TSW has been worked a little by the Performance Center to an extent it's better than the regular shelf smiths......The grip fram is a bit smaller in order to fit a smaller hand... maybe the Smith 6906? 469? as they're the same size grip frame.. I know the price is high.but a P7 might be a good idea as well......Squeeze cocker for safe decocking.and if she's concerned about the gun being "unsafe in storage" she can always take the firing pin system right out of the rear of the slide assembly.....just a suggestion for thought :biggrin:
 

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Discussion Starter #20
S&W AUTOS?

CLASS3NH said:
How about a Smith 4040PD or a 4013TSW? the TSW has been worked a little by the Performance Center to an extent it's better than the regular shelf smiths......The grip fram is a bit smaller in order to fit a smaller hand... maybe the Smith 6906? 469? as they're the same size grip frame.. I know the price is high.but a P7 might be a good idea as well......Squeeze cocker for safe decocking.and if she's concerned about the gun being "unsafe in storage" she can always take the firing pin system right out of the rear of the slide assembly.....just a suggestion for thought :biggrin:
I just HATE S&W autos! My feeling is that S&W makes a better revolver and Colt makes a better semiauto. S&W Autos feel ergonomically uncomfortable, like they're gonna "squirt" out of my hand. It's all subjective, I realize, but a teacher can't help but subliminally project some of these biases....lol I'll steer her right. Her brother feels exactly the same way about S&W's! Maybe that's where I got my thoughts from originally. lol

As far as anything H&K or even remotely GERMAN..well, see the webster definition for "Zionist."
 
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