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just got email from smith and wesson that they got a new m&p 15 and it comes with 5 free mags
* New, complete M&P15 Rifles chambered in 5.56mm only, excludes upper or lower receivers. M&P15-22 Rifles are not eligible for this promotion. ** Because of certain restrictions (including state and local regulations concerning magazine capacity) not all persons will be eligible to receive some items in this promotion. Where 30-round magazines are restricted, 10-round, aluminum magazines will be substituted. These rifles are made in the U.S.A. and are covered by the Smith & Wesson Lifetime Service Policy. MP15_LoadUp_email.jpg
 

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Well I have never had a problem with my M&P15 shooting Winchester 5.56 or Federal XM193. That damaged gun looks like a one off, freak accident.
 

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Personally and professionally I would not even consider this rifle for purchase.

There's too many manufacturers out there that have better reputations and for the same cost. BCM, LMT, Colt, etc. RRA comes in a strong second to these as well.

I've just read enough about these Kabooms in the M&P rifle to know it's like a beautiful woman that wants to sleep with you but gives you fair warning that she's got multiple STD's.

That's just me.

ETA: If a company say's they have a lifetime service policy, it scares me a bit. Afterall, if you buy a decent rifle, then you don't need a warranty that say's "We'll take care of any problems" There should not be any problems, with the exceptions of a rare machining process variance or user/operator lack of maintanence.

Again, that's just me. Good to have a life time warranty, but it speaks to me of more a marketing gimmick, not the reality of possibly having to send a complete rifle back to the manufacturer. If I have to send it back, I'll probably want them to keep it and refund me the money for the purchase.

Again, that's just me.
 

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Well I have never had a problem with my M&P15 shooting Winchester 5.56 or Federal XM193. That damaged gun looks like a one off, freak accident.
Here is a second case. Both on this forum. What are the chances of that? So how many have had similar issues and aren't on this forum??:gah:
 

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Here is a second case. Both on this forum. What are the chances of that? So how many have had similar issues and aren't on this forum??:gah:
As against how many are on this forum and and do own an M&P15 model and have had no problems what so ever _and_ how many are not on this forum and have had no problems what so ever.

S&W has sold tend of thousands of units in this model and the lions share of owners have had nothing but glowing reports...Running all manner of ammo.
Never mind that your second case example, which actually was the first instance reported here, had resolved to be not an issue with the gun nor the fault of the gun but as due to bad mfr. ammo.
Most all mfrs. do not honor warranties as related to bad ammunition errors/malfs/blowups. Unfortunate for the owner but nothing at all new to the industry. Ones argument to that end is with the ammo mfr., in this specific case Remington, not with the firearm mfr. that the round happened to be fired out of. In this event it was Remington who gave the person the run around and by that the owner spilled over his own view of blame to S&W hoping that they would step in an mediate his scoring a replacement gun vis a vis Remington.

On the whole though if you're going to cite stats and odds then you've got to take into account the whole, not just selected parts.
S&W has been moving M&P15s as quick as they can make them and doing so for years now. It's been on the market like 4 yrs. IIRC. Very much largely owners report nothing but satisfaction and have not had issues at all...Including in dealing with customer service toward other non ammo related issues and events.

If one were to demonize S&W for these _two_ isolated events then well no mfr. I know of would be worth while to buy from either as everone has had at least two customers have some manner of issue and complaint about some item of their product line including Glocks with their unsupported chambers and gun go boom episodes. Oddly though I don't see that very well known news slowing down or changing folks minds about that mfr. or their product offerings.

Two incidents as against tens of thousands of units sold does not make a trend nor even a statistical/odds relevant case of argument.
Simply they are unfortunate and regrettable instances that are not singularly attributable to the gun considering a major component being ammunition as in addition to operator error/maintenance are significant and key factors toward duplicating same AR15 go boom result.

Personally I would have no problem and not think twice about investing in a S&W AR15.
In fact I have and am thinking to do just that as with in specific their excellent M&P15PC Performance Center built precision rifle.

- Janq
 

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There are other major issues with the S&W's on other forums as well. Frankly the rifle looks really nice and it becomes tempting with the normal reputation that S&W has, but I will keep my fingers thank you.

By the way, it seems like they started having quite a few of these problems after Stag quite making their rifles for them. Just a thought, but I don't ever remember the kaboom issues during that period of time.
 

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C hawk,

Name me just one mfr. of any firearm what so ever that does not as per reporting on the internets _not_ have "major issues"...including Glock.

As based on the internet and forums every gun and top end I own currently as well as have ever owned are/were all malf prone garbage that is neither accurate, reliable, manufactured correctly nor worth the price of acquisition and their mfrs. customer service is nothing but suck.
I kid you not...Every one.

Yet oddly and interestingly every one of my guns and top ends, and they are widely variable, have been rock solid dependable. Further I've had interaction with customer service for various reasons toward every gun I've ever owned, excluding to date the mfr. of my top end, and oddly I have had only one experience that was below what I would deem a normal standard of expectation...and even that event was quite odd and one off related to start.
Thats being across five major 'brand name' manufacturers including handguns, rifle, and shotgun.

For that matter as based on internet reports nobody should be buying anybody's firearm offering of any make, mfr., action type, or internal design be it DI, blowback, break action or muzzleloaded.
They all are inaccurate, break easy, and can/will blowup in your hand. So say members at *.forum.com

In many other industries that sell product, which is my bread & butter, we all have come to know from experience that very often rumor and as current internet postings do not often tell the whole of a given tale be it by individual singular instance of of occurrence nor by wide view.
Not to say that every instance and internet view is Oscar-Mayer balogna, but I am saying take what you hear good, bad, or indifferent as with a grain of salt.

Heck there are people on internet forums who bad talk and relates tales of woe toward EOTech product, a former client of my company, and state how at such n' such time the device 'failed' or 'went down' and nearly got them killed.
Uh huh, okay. Mean while much of the whole worlds war fighters are if not have been running that product and it is well known to be solid.
There are people who will and do complain that Timex watches are garbage and can't keep time, on watch forums (I'm a long time watch nut). Clearly as based on results though there is only so much truth to that statement, too.

The internet and forums are a virtual version of a watercooler.
Take from it what you will but don't take it all verbatim.

$0.02 Street

- Janq
 

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Janq,

You are right about people bad mouthing different weapons on the internet. That's what you are going to hear, not the good things but the bad. People are more often than not going to express their disscontent with a product or producer than praise, that's just the way of the world.

Your assumption that they've sold tens of thousands may hold water. But my comment on the quality of the CUSTOMER SERVICE (or lack there of) seems to be pretty apparent. The way they treated both these guys on our board is crap. Funny how they both spoke with the same people and got the same "no" until they talked with someone higher up in the S&W chain.

To be so much of a defender maybe you can explain why the LAPD decided to get rid of the M&P line? (LAPD.. Dropping S&W M&P 9mm - Tennessee Gun Owners) Yet they still keep selling?!?!

I'm not bashing S&W because they produce a inferior product. I'm bashing they way that they treated these two guys.

My $0.02
 

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Amen Janq.... .. Mine has worked flawlessly and I have a friend that has one too,.. His has never had any issues either.. I'm sure there is something about them "failed units" that we're not hearing..

Great deal for sure,.. If I could afford another one I would in a heartbeat,.. :)
 

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Cuban,

I do not assume they have sold tens of thousands.
I know this as fact as based on direct commentary and conversation to me in private conversation about the product by the VP of S&W, the Commercial Markets Manager and the VP of Marketing as well as factory floor staff aka 'fitters' who have been working full swing shifts to assemble them and get units out the door so as to meet demand.

I do training & instruction work (as amongst my personal life) with S&W and happen to know through those efforts the Customer Service Manager as well, which I'd posted toward in the first thread with the guy who had the bad round. In fact on my own I'd reached out to him directly and forwarded a link for that thread to his attention. I'd posted that as well and I have posted in the past far and recent that I to various degrees have and do maintain a relationship with S&W.
I assure you I am not supposing or assuming anything as related to units sold, specifically toward the M&P15 series widely. They are right now and have been extremely popular as in the market both civilian and LEO.

But with that said your impression that I was being a "defender" in prior post is off base.
What I'd stated was that the internet is full of people complaining AND that every mfr. has had this or that complaint and problem. Again name one that has not and I'm pretty sure I could within 2 minutes effort locate you a forum that has multiple pages of woe postings against said make or model. That's the internet be the product firearms, lawnmowers, hair dryers, or even baby diapers made from cloth (machine versus handmade versus made in the USA vs import vs...).

As to your question abut the LAPD, what has that got to do with the subject at hand?
This is rifles...Not handguns? Might as well ask me about S&W revolvers that came with internal locks from a decade ago. That would be equally relevant too, which is irrelevant.
But if you are truly wondering and would like an answer then head over to smith-wessonforum.com and ask there considering that is a forum well known to be dedicate to the specific product. They may have the answers you seek, inclusive of defenders et. al.

This subject could be literally _any_ AR15 manufacturer, with exception of Remington...only because they just started offering product, as they all have had complaints and customer service incidents and what not.
For proof of that just go to AR15.com. The complaints and complainers are all over the place there. Heck they amongst themself cannot agree on what single manufacturer is best to buy from for an AR15 and they have even gone through the etrouble to multiple times create a mfr. matrix cross reference. But they battle about that as well so it gets updated and reupdated only to have the updates discussed and debated.

Again as according to the internets the best thing to do is to buy nothing and stockpile rocks.
But then I'm sure there is a forum of geologists, amateur and professional, who would and likely do argue what rocks suck and which ones are hardest and why.

- Janq

P.S. - My posts above do not at all disparage nor reduce/lessen the views and specific experiences of persons who actually as owners have had issues with any given manufacturer, including S&W. Nor should anyone see them as such.

Further as full disclosure, I do not own any S&W stock nor do business with them as a client relationship (I'm not paid by them in any form or fashion). I get nothign to my own pocket whether they sell one unit or a zillion units. It literally makes no difference to me either way.
And I do not own any S&W product nor ever have for that matter. Why? Simply because I just haven't gotten around to buying anything from them, yet.
Also it's a known here per my own prior posts that I personally am not a fan of the AR15/M4/M16 firearm as in format/human interface or in the Stoner DI design. My own personal view (ergos) and opinion (mechanical design).
But, I do plan to buy not just one but two AR15s in the coming 12 months and they both will come from S&W only because they happen to offer what I now desire and best meet my requirements as with exclusion of AR based ergos.
I'll buy a commercial off the shelf unit just like anybody else....and roll the dice be it good, bad, or ugly.
M&P15PC and M&P15-22.
 

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Jang,

Thanks for your rapid response.

I think most people come to the internet to determine if a product will meet what they need out of it. I know I've done that will all my guns, my motorcycle, mine and the wife's car. Instead of wasting my hard earned money on something that may have re-occuring issues with it, I'd like to find out first hand, by word of mouth, on what everybody who has owned/driven/fired one has to say. To me it's worth my time to research the product before purchase.

In regards to the LASD (not LAPD sorry) dropping the M&P line. It has alot to do with the issue, if the quality of the product that the LASD received was below their standard then they did the right thing. That product is made by S&W, the manufacturer of the MP 15.

I'm sure that if we tore apart the internet we would find cases of issues will ALL manufacturers. The issue still remains that S&W gave these guys the run around, I would assume to anticipate them just giving up and purchasing another one. With another thread on this forum, you can see that the guy made a mistake with his reloads and blew up his LCP. Ruger replaced it all for free. That to ME is customer service. I'm not saying it is a good idea for a company to replace something for someone else's mistake, but that gave me the warm and fuzzy after I purchased my LCP.

I really don't want to get into a urinating match with you though. I have no ties to any manufacturer of firearm so my opinion is not biased. I'm just an active duty Coastie, giving his opinion, on what I feel may be an inferior product.

Oh and I am stockpiling rocks and sticks, just in case my home built AR blows up.:wink:
Cuban
 

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Ditto man...My kids have been collecting rocks and pebbles all summer.
Although possession of sling shots and slung shot arms is illegal here in MA. :|

I have my own CS stories as with relation to Sig having replaced all of the internals to my GSR with completely new parts, _thrice_!, upon me sending in my GSR to them as I do every two years for a general review and analysis as I train with it very often and it's got a high round count.
No charge to me as they have thus far warrantied everything! Not that I'm not willing to pay for stuff I've worn out.
The only thing original on my gun is the barrel, frame and the grips. That's all. They had even sent me a new packet of lube for free.

Thus far I've owned three different Sig Arms/Sig Sauer product across the past 18 yrs. and have had nothing but good experiences by them, all interestingly with product that is/was alleged to have been suck and/or unreliable....and by a company that supposedly is lacking in customer service. Weird.
It's no accident that I keep returning to spend coin on Sig product. Even as they too have had some product gaffes here and there, which have been widely reported and reviewed on forums et. al. (Mosquito and early release GSR units such as mine had been).

Then there is my thread from almost exactly to the day two years ago about my experience with Springfield Armory which was ridiculously excellent!
They sent me a WHOLE NEW AND BETTER GUN as in exchange against my old gun that I'd bought _used_ and was roughly 8 yrs. old with by my hand of ownership alone very many rounds through it on the order of probably 10 to 15K. The owner before me didn't have it as a closet queen either.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/general-firearm-discussion/33342-what-would-you-do-im-being-offered-new-1911-sa.html
October 2nd, 2007, 11:56 AM

I could go on about my experiences with Colt and Kimber too as well but I won't.
Again not saying that other folks _direct_ experiences are invalidated because they are not.
But I know for sure from working amongst my own companys widely varying product based clients, who also often have whole internet posts and even forums dedicated to their own product, that there is commonly more to a given users/operators story of woe than what is stated on the internet. Even as there might be multiple instances of the same end result...and it's not at all unusual in the product market for quantity buyers to return product for any number of reasons. I see this regularly in my own work world as related to government and state purchasing for product from chairs to document processors to bio-medical devices.

Back on pint though, I personally would not take two instance as posted here and by that think to write off an entire line of product or for that matter a whole companys product line offerings plural present, past, or future.
S&W has had some lemons. We all know this. Heck they know it too.

But so is the same story with everyone from Colt to Kimber to Sig to Glock to Bushmaster to...Even as on the whole these all are top tier vendors.

- Janq

" gotta get out of this place. If it's the last thing I ever do..." - The Animals
 

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S&W has had some lemons. We all know this. Heck they know it too.
If they know it (everyone does once in a while) then the Customer Service should have been better. That's my main issue.

Have a great day.
 

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Cuban.

In that statement you quote I was speaking broadly as over the history of their companies total offerings as ever sold, not in specific to this single users singular case with a single product item as sold from a single model line (!).

Two against literally tens of thousands of units shipped does not make a trend.
One does not have to have any relation to any vendor in any manner what so ever to understand that.
As to CS support again case by case basis and though some guy blew up his Ruger for using reloads and the mfr. went ahead and sent him a new unit anyway (similar to my SA situation with worn parts) that is not to say nor should one think that any other vendor who does not react same for others in a specific case is thus being lesser or not providing good CS support on the whole as to all their other cases.
To think so simply is not fair nor balanced.

- Janq
 

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Janq,

By no means am I putting down S&W AR's. I can only go by here say and information that is in front of me. I do not own one and have not shot one, but that does not mean I have not heard of problems with them. ARCOM has posts about issues with them as well. By the way your mentioning of Glock's kabooming is very valid and the reason why I don't shoot reloads in mine.

I might be one of the odd balls, but I believe many of these issues are caused by ammo more often then the gun.
 

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Agreed across the board C hawk.

Including ARFcom who has a problem with every rifle/carbine product ever made by anyone, ever (!).
Which makes for some interesting if not out right entertaining reading. :p

Count me in with you as an odd ball as well.

I too believe/feel that a good portion if not many of the issues are ammunition related without otherwise regard to the gun.
And not speaking singularly to S&W M&P15s only either.

BTW if there were say 200 such cases, rather than 2, then I'd be like okay there is a problem there, regardless of the mfr. be it S&W, Sig, Colt, Glock or who ever.
But that is not the case, here. Further it's a known that the first item was ammo related (Remington) at that,per the OPs own statements and reporting in his thread. His beef and real issue was with Remington's bad ammo.

Yes the threads here and at ARFcom are long in discussion length BUT the actual amount of owners/end users as within those threads are singular such as is the case for the two threads here.
Two problems does not make a trend. At ARFcom there are probably ten others maybe with same. Again against literally thousands of units out the door.

But hey if folks don't want to deal with such problems and be able to digest whatever ammo including Wolf too, then maybe get a Sig instead.
OMG...Controversy! :)

<Pulls on Nomex flame resistant suit> :lol:

Anyway this was fun but I'm done.
Gotta get back to work making cheese to pay for ammo, from Remington.

- Janq
 

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Update:

As per an update from the OP as in the _second_ M&P15 blow up thread it is confirmed that Remington the ammo. mfr. is again at cause for the issue.

This is as I'd stated prior not a S&W product problem at all nor are their CS folk at fault for not just handing out free replacement guns because faulty ammo blew up in them. Ones issue and argument is the ammo manufacturer, which in both cases reported here at DC.com link back to Remington.

The latest update can be found here today as of 2:04P EST
http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-rifles-shotgun-discussion/80841-s-w-m-p-15-exploded-14.html#post1315717

But I also guarantee this not insignificant fact willbe forgotten/left out too, as with the first incident, and all that folks will recall and speak on is mfr. name and model, 'blew up'.
Which simply is not the whole story and is not an objective nor fair re-telling of the tale be the product by S&W or fill in the blank other vendor.

But hey, that's the internets for ya.

- A grain of salt
 

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I doubt it.

Putting blame to a third party as from a legal stand point is not something any company would take lightly nor do without cause.
I myself manage a corporation and there is no way we would do same at all never mind as related to a customer unless there was very good and substantive cause.

Further as based on _both_ of the OPs own statements of what occurred from the start to my own mind, and that of others in both threads, the issue was clearly caused by and related to ammunition.
Both instances in fact were and are ammunition related problems. That the AR is possibly sensitive to ammunition per it's DI design is not the fault of S&W as it is not their design. Nor would as much be specific just to S&W as the vast majority of ARs are of DI design.

You can't really blame one company for not jumping up and down to go to bat as against a whole other third party toward an incident such as this.
Yes it would be nice if they did so...But to expect as much at all muchless each and every time such an event occurs, that is a stretch.
As to your item about Ruger and their LCP with some guy reloading that makes more sense for them to do as that model is brand new to market and based on a completely new frame design. Which is not applicable nor even remotely relevant to this with S&W and a rifle based on a nearly 50 yr. old and widely copied design.
Apples and pears.

In this specific case it was the Remington ammo, no ifs about it, so say by analysis both S&W and Remington as per the OPs own statements toward finality.
Yes it took time to come to an agreement toward that fact. But it's only been what 3 months. All things being equal as related to other industries such as that of automotive to get a conclusive response in 90 days is quick.

s to the why of this, my guess is that one round was badly undercharged (too little powder) resulting in the firearm not having enough kinetic energy as gas to cycle completely.
Next round comes along with a partially open/unsealed bolt and boom!!...Metal goes flying here there and elsewhere. This could and has happened to any other brand/type manufacture firearm.

It should not happen with commercial ammo, but this wouldn't be the first time and likely is not the last.

- Janq
 
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