The "prohibited behavior" section doesn't specifically have a clause exempting lawful possession/use on company property. My read would be: they'd take a dim view of it, unless you get specific clarification to the contrary.
New Workplace Violence policy posted...need help interpreting the lawyer-ese
I was made aware of our new Workplace Violence HR policy yesterday and it had a couple of passage concerning carrying/possessing weapons. I have my NC CCL and currently keep my weapon in my car. My company leases a suite in an shared office complex and my car is parked in the lot of the complex. The following passages were found in the policy:
Prohibited behavior includes, but is not limited to:
-The use or possession of dangerous weapons, explosives or hazardous devices or substances on Company property or while conducting Company business, or in vehicles, aircraft, or watercraft that are owned, leased or chartered by the Company when not used by authorized Company employees, agents, contractors or others for legitimate business purposes.
(This is the one bullet point that pertained to weapons and I interpret it as saying that no weapons are allowed in Company vehicles)
In another section it mentions:
Weapons Permitted by State or Local Law: Weapons will not be permitted on Company property in any area not expressly and specifically authorized by law. Unless prohibited by law, employees who bring weapons onto Company property, as allowed by law, must notify security of the type and location of the weapon, whether the weapon is secured, and when it is removed from the property.
^Does this mean that since I have a CCL I'm allowed to carry per the State law? NC state law states that posted signs or notice from the Owner means you cannot carry in that building (that's a very very short sypnosis of the NC law). I don't bring the weapon inside, so I don't notify anyone that I have a weapon in my vehicle. Is the parking lot (which is shared among all suite leasees) considered Company property since technically it is owned by the leaser?
Sorry for the long post and all the legal-ese.
Prohibited behavior includes, but is not limited to:
-The use or possession of dangerous weapons, explosives or hazardous devices or substances on Company property or while conducting Company business, or in vehicles, aircraft, or watercraft that are owned, leased or chartered by the Company when not used by authorized Company employees, agents, contractors or others for legitimate business purposes.
(This is the one bullet point that pertained to weapons and I interpret it as saying that no weapons are allowed in Company vehicles)
In another section it mentions:
Weapons Permitted by State or Local Law: Weapons will not be permitted on Company property in any area not expressly and specifically authorized by law. Unless prohibited by law, employees who bring weapons onto Company property, as allowed by law, must notify security of the type and location of the weapon, whether the weapon is secured, and when it is removed from the property.
^Does this mean that since I have a CCL I'm allowed to carry per the State law? NC state law states that posted signs or notice from the Owner means you cannot carry in that building (that's a very very short sypnosis of the NC law). I don't bring the weapon inside, so I don't notify anyone that I have a weapon in my vehicle. Is the parking lot (which is shared among all suite leasees) considered Company property since technically it is owned by the leaser?
Sorry for the long post and all the legal-ese.
1 - 20 of 31 Posts
I think all they are saying is if state law allows you to keep weapons in a personal vehicle, they can't actually stop you from it but I think they are trying to get you to inform them that you have it anyway???
I'm not sure, but I'd check your state law concerning keeping firearms in private vehicles. If the state law doesn't say that you have to inform the employer, then I wouldn't inform them...
Obviously the absolute best idea would be to seek advice from your personal attorney, who will be much better qualified to delve into this than most of us.
I'm not sure, but I'd check your state law concerning keeping firearms in private vehicles. If the state law doesn't say that you have to inform the employer, then I wouldn't inform them...
Obviously the absolute best idea would be to seek advice from your personal attorney, who will be much better qualified to delve into this than most of us.
I believe the parking lot would be considered a form of community property since it's not out right owned by the company your work for and is shared by other businesses in the building. Now, that's just my interpretation of things and, as suggested, you might want to check with someone more versed in the firearm laws in NC.
I'd keep it in the car and not worry about it...but that's me.
I had the same impression as TX expat and chrisw670.
You said this is a "new policy", but it doesn't sound as if you're a new employee. If that's the case, why not just pick up the phone and casually ask HR for the plain English interpretation? Just say that some of the provisions about weapons seem to contradict each other and there's some confusion as to exactly what it means.
Don't say anything about having a gun or a permit, and don't ask any "pointed questions" that might raise suspicion. Be casual and act like you're just curious.
I suspect that you'll find TX expat is right, and I also suspect that they can enforce the failure to notify provision without violating any laws. However, I don't see how they'd ever find out what's in an employee's personal vehicle, especially when it's parked on property they don't own or exclusively lease.
You said this is a "new policy", but it doesn't sound as if you're a new employee. If that's the case, why not just pick up the phone and casually ask HR for the plain English interpretation? Just say that some of the provisions about weapons seem to contradict each other and there's some confusion as to exactly what it means.
Don't say anything about having a gun or a permit, and don't ask any "pointed questions" that might raise suspicion. Be casual and act like you're just curious.
I suspect that you'll find TX expat is right, and I also suspect that they can enforce the failure to notify provision without violating any laws. However, I don't see how they'd ever find out what's in an employee's personal vehicle, especially when it's parked on property they don't own or exclusively lease.
IANAL, but this passage really sounds fishy.
The laws in most cases do not specify where one may carry a firearm, they specify places one cannot. That could be a weaselly way of blocking carry on company property, as no law specifically allows it.Weapons will not be permitted on Company property in any area not expressly and specifically authorized by law.
"My company leases a suite in an shared office complex and my car is parked in the lot of the complex. "
The parking lot is NOT company property. It belongs to the developer/owner.
"Weapons will not be permitted on Company property in any area not expressly and specifically authorized by law. "
If state law does not "prohibit" weapons in an area, then weapons are authorized--permits considered.
As far as what the notice from HR says, ask them to interpret it in plain English.
The parking lot is NOT company property. It belongs to the developer/owner.
"Weapons will not be permitted on Company property in any area not expressly and specifically authorized by law. "
If state law does not "prohibit" weapons in an area, then weapons are authorized--permits considered.
As far as what the notice from HR says, ask them to interpret it in plain English.
This, to me, sounds like double-speak...and they want employees to self-identify if they have weapons in the car, even though you are NOT breaking any laws. I recommend NOT asking any questions, as that will identify you as having weapons, and now you're on their radar. However, caveat to that, if you supervise other employees you could ask in a supervisory capacity, what does this mean since you are charged with enforcing company policy.
Thanks for all your input. I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks the wording is iffy. My initial read on it is that they don't want weapons in the building or on the property, but the parking lot is technically the leaser's property, so I think I'll keep it in my vehicle and not say a word to anyone. I don't want to be on anyone's radar and asking any question about it will put me squarely there.
Thanks again for all the help.
Thanks again for all the help.
If no one asks questions, it will remain nebulous. Anthing left vague will remain subject to various interpretations. Is that what you want?
Or take a copy of it to a lawyer and ask that he interpret it and give an opinion.
Or take a copy of it to a lawyer and ask that he interpret it and give an opinion.
Agree. The position is a CYA statement, and it smells heavily of their not wanting to acknowledge acceptable carry of weapons of any sort.This, to me, sounds like double-speak...and they want employees to self-identify if they have weapons in the car, even though you are NOT breaking any laws.
If a company actually supports lawful carry and they're going to have something in the policy manual stating so, they'll very specifically say that lawful carry of concealed defensive weapons is supported but that all other carrying of arms is banned and subject to disciplinary procedures up to and including termination. Anything short of specifically calling out lawful carry as acceptable and approved leaves a person open to normal and customary "at-will" sorts of handling of their finding out a person carries.
I would say leave it in the car, don't bring it up, and don't worry about it. Even if there is an active shooter in your workplace, I can't think of many situations where you would make it to your car and do anything other than use it to drive away towards safety.
"Weapons will not be permitted on Company property in any area not expressly and specifically authorized by law. Unless prohibited by law, employees who bring weapons onto Company property, as allowed by law, must notify security of the type and location of the weapon, whether the weapon is secured, and when it is removed from the property".
Because you have a CCP you are allowed by law to carry itI would think you could carry it in the office and just have to notify security which sounds like it might be more of a pain than what it would be worth.I would think if you left it in the parking lot you would not have to notify them because it is not their property.
Because you have a CCP you are allowed by law to carry itI would think you could carry it in the office and just have to notify security which sounds like it might be more of a pain than what it would be worth.I would think if you left it in the parking lot you would not have to notify them because it is not their property.
I follw the "Don't ask, don't tell" policy at work. I also follow my policy of "since you made such a stupid policy, I not saving your butt when SHTF"
"...while conducting Company business..."
Catch all statement. If you're at work you're conducting company business, right?
"Weapons will not be permitted on Company property in any area not expressly and specifically authorized by law. Unless prohibited by law, employees who bring weapons onto Company property, as allowed by law, must notify security of the type and location of the weapon, whether the weapon is secured, and when it is removed from the property.
Another catch all type statement.
I'd be wary if I didn't have another job lined up. All it would take is one slip, one off hand comment, one security guard walking through the lot, one co-worker at lunch.....
Catch all statement. If you're at work you're conducting company business, right?
"Weapons will not be permitted on Company property in any area not expressly and specifically authorized by law. Unless prohibited by law, employees who bring weapons onto Company property, as allowed by law, must notify security of the type and location of the weapon, whether the weapon is secured, and when it is removed from the property.
Another catch all type statement.
I'd be wary if I didn't have another job lined up. All it would take is one slip, one off hand comment, one security guard walking through the lot, one co-worker at lunch.....
I've got no clue what that says, means, or intends, either. Looked at one way it could be a very weasel way
of allowing CCW while appearing to not allow it. Looked at the other way, you could get in trouble just
for asking--though that would be unfair.
I have a hunch that asking folks at HR won't help. They didn't draft that thing and probably have no clue
what it means either. Some law firm contracted by the owner drafted it, and only they know what they
were trying to accomplish. That IMO appears to be
to confuse the matter to such an extent that it means whatever the company chooses it to mean at any
point in time at the company's convenience.
I have a hunch your big honchos carry, security knows about them, and that is why it is worded as it is.
Maybe if you asked you'd be allowed to carry; and maybe if you asked you'd get fired. Only the
big suits know for sure. And they clearly aren't telling. They could have if they wanted to.
What to do? Beats me. I'd probably not inquire unless I was 110% certain that asking wouldn't cause
trouble and that the person answering could speak authoritatively for the company.
As others pointed out the parking lot doesn't seem to be company property and you intend to leave it
locked in the car. Let it go at that and keep your mouth zipped about it.
Added thought a moment later: Are the "security folks" good guys? Maybe they know the answer and would tell you what their instructions are if someone asked them. It might be safer
to ask them then to ask HR. It is less "official," more casual, they probably don't really give a hoot about the company and its policies and just want to mind their own business, so less chance they'll snitch if casually asked.
of allowing CCW while appearing to not allow it. Looked at the other way, you could get in trouble just
for asking--though that would be unfair.
I have a hunch that asking folks at HR won't help. They didn't draft that thing and probably have no clue
what it means either. Some law firm contracted by the owner drafted it, and only they know what they
were trying to accomplish. That IMO appears to be
to confuse the matter to such an extent that it means whatever the company chooses it to mean at any
point in time at the company's convenience.
I have a hunch your big honchos carry, security knows about them, and that is why it is worded as it is.
Maybe if you asked you'd be allowed to carry; and maybe if you asked you'd get fired. Only the
big suits know for sure. And they clearly aren't telling. They could have if they wanted to.
What to do? Beats me. I'd probably not inquire unless I was 110% certain that asking wouldn't cause
trouble and that the person answering could speak authoritatively for the company.
As others pointed out the parking lot doesn't seem to be company property and you intend to leave it
locked in the car. Let it go at that and keep your mouth zipped about it.
Added thought a moment later: Are the "security folks" good guys? Maybe they know the answer and would tell you what their instructions are if someone asked them. It might be safer
to ask them then to ask HR. It is less "official," more casual, they probably don't really give a hoot about the company and its policies and just want to mind their own business, so less chance they'll snitch if casually asked.
In my state of Kentucky, The inside of a personal vehicle is considered "your private property" even when parked on someone elses private property. Once you step out of your vehicle you are considered on their property. I would call tghe local sheriff and see. I would caution on thinking that the parking lot is not the business owners property because he is a renter. That would be like saying someones leased apartment is not private.
Sometimes it may not pay to find out EXACTLY what they mean. If it is vaguely written and open to interpretation...that is "wiggle room" should the SHTF. IMO.I follw the "Don't ask, don't tell" policy at work. I also follow my policy of "since you made such a stupid policy, I not saving your butt when SHTF"
It sounds like this wording has you guys as confused as it has me. This is a huge international company and we are a small branch of a small division. There is no "security" team on site here and no HR personnel. I'd have to go up past branch level, area level, to zone level to get an HR person probably. Most people here are open minded and I think they'd be ok. No one snoops around and there is only a minuscule chance that it'd ever be seen by anyone.
I can see this being interpreted either way...so I think I'll keep my mouth shut and keep my pistol nearby in the vehicle.
I can see this being interpreted either way...so I think I'll keep my mouth shut and keep my pistol nearby in the vehicle.
1 - 20 of 31 Posts
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