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Read a few good articles in Guns and ammo "combat tactics" sponsored by surefire. There was a low light SWAT coarse that focused on low light and moving targets. Now most of us won't need that much training in a defensive situation but seeing on how most confrontations would occur at night it might be a good idea to practice these things. First off I've decided that even though the XM-220 is a good choice for target illumination and acquisition there are almost no holsters for it. Additionally dew to the concealed nature of our carry it would be difficult to hide a pistol with a light attached. So this brings me to flashlight techniques. Which would any of you consider the best for defensive shooting? Harries Rodgers or other. Also what flashlight would you use (those lithium batteries can be brutal on the wallet). Also with a lighting technique would it be redundant to have a night site or would an iron sight be better?
 

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I have carried a Surefire 6P for over 20 years and replace the batteries about every 4 months. I also purchase my batteries from Surefire to save money. Thus said, I also have E2 Executive and Z2. Since I'm in civis now days, I carry the E2 either cliped to the front of my pants in the belt line or in my t-shirt holster. The Z2 sits by my gun safe. As far as how to deploy them, I train with both the Harris and Rogers. With the Z2 I use the Rogers style of grip and with the 6P and E2 I use the Harris technique. I hope that helps. Oh one final point, I have found that the E2 Executive is my favorite of all hand held lights to date.
 

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Im not a fan of carrying a flashlight in one hand and a gun in the other while out looking for trouble. I've done it many times and its just too cumbersome. Trying to open a door with a both hands occupied is difficult. Putting the flashlight under your arm while opening a door is a recipe for disaster. Someone on the other side of the door waiting for you can wait till you get halfway in and slam the door on you. You will instinctively reach out with your hand to keep from getting slammed and more often than not drop your flashlight.

Having done it every way you can imagine on various burglary calls, I got introduced to the weapon mounted light. The reason that many Police Depts. have gone to it is because for what they do, it is a superior method in just about every way, except one.

Most lights are small enough that they can be carried in its own holster, its no bigger than a cell phone. They are powerful enough that they are a good usefull light. They are centered well enough that if youve got someone centered in the beam, at pistol ranges you will hit them without using sights and its very quick.

You can use your other hand to defend yourself, open doors, move stuff, use your radio when the dispatchers are getting nervous about not hearing from you for a while or another unit is there communicating with you, and you arent as likely to drop your gun.

Dont take my word for it, Try it with one of your friends. Darken your house and try to find him preferably with a toy gun that wont matter if hits the floor.. If hes the least bit aggresive, he can make it very tough for you to keep hold of both things. Remember that your hands are full and you wont want to drop your only source of light or your gun.

Moving and holding a flashight in one hand and a gun in another has worked for decades, but its certainley not the best way. If thats all youve got thats what you'll have to use but I dont know of anyone that prefers that after using a weapon mounted light.

There is ONE disadvantage to not using a C or D cell maglight. Those little weapon mounted lights or small flashlights just dont hurt as much when you try to whack somone with it...:blink:
 

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I'm a Harries guy all the way. Having said that, I'm just now waiting to receive my first tactical light (an H&K UTL for my USP 45) for true "point and click" interface!
 

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HotGuns said:
Im not a fan of carrying a flashlight in one hand and a gun in the other while out looking for trouble. I've done it many times and its just too cumbersome. Trying to open a door with a both hands occupied is difficult. Putting the flashlight under your arm while opening a door is a recipe for disaster. Someone on the other side of the door waiting for you can wait till you get halfway in and slam the door on you. You will instinctively reach out with your hand to keep from getting slammed and more often than not drop your flashlight.

Having done it every way you can imagine on various burglary calls, I got introduced to the weapon mounted light. The reason that many Police Depts. have gone to it is because for what they do, it is a superior method in just about every way, except one.

Most lights are small enough that they can be carried in its own holster, its no bigger than a cell phone. They are powerful enough that they are a good usefull light. They are centered well enough that if youve got someone centered in the beam, at pistol ranges you will hit them without using sights and its very quick.

You can use your other hand to defend yourself, open doors, move stuff, use your radio when the dispatchers are getting nervous about not hearing from you for a while or another unit is there communicating with you, and you arent as likely to drop your gun.

Dont take my word for it, Try it with one of your friends. Darken your house and try to find him preferably with a toy gun that wont matter if hits the floor.. If hes the least bit aggresive, he can make it very tough for you to keep hold of both things. Remember that your hands are full and you wont want to drop your only source of light or your gun.

Moving and holding a flashight in one hand and a gun in another has worked for decades, but its certainley not the best way. If thats all youve got thats what you'll have to use but I dont know of anyone that prefers that after using a weapon mounted light.

There is ONE disadvantage to not using a C or D cell maglight. Those little weapon mounted lights or small flashlights just dont hurt as much when you try to whack somone with it...:blink:
Wow HotGuns, that's exactly the way I see it. I have been through a number of simulators and FOF simulators. It can be challanging to open a door with a flash light in one hand and a gun in the other.

And amen on the under arm method - with any kind of surprise, it's gonna wind up on the floor.

There is a method, but it's not much of an improvement IMO. That is the lanyard. The concept is that the light is attached to the wrist with a lanyard. To open a door, you release the light, and then swing the light back up into your hand. IMO, it's iffy.

To see how iffy, one only needs to be in a dark room and try to open a door while your flashlight is dangling from that lanyard. If somethin' happens, there's no way you'll have a light.

OTOH, if there's light on your gun, the gun and light is between you and the threat. You can shoot from a normal two-hand grip and have light too.

The detractors of WMLs state that you have to point a gun at persons/areas that may not be a threat. But one is not limited to just the WML, you can carry a handheld for those situations where you don't want to point the gun at an area. But in reality, if one uses a Harries or Rogers technique, you are pointing your gun everywhere the light goes.
 

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Still doing hand held - but having just the diminutive E1e find I can grip that between weak hand pinkie and ring finger, well enough to get light approx fwd - leaving enough hand ability for the gun.

I have rails on the SIG but the holster headache is too much for me to want to bother with a change. That said, if I get a suitable rail mount light - I may start adding that at night, as same gun does bedroom duty when not in daily carry use.

That would make a useful compromize for me.
 

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Lights are bullet magnets.

The technique I use depends on the situation.

The one I practice the most is a one I sort of discovered by myself, and now I see being taught. Weak hand with light is indexed on left ear. Light has lanyard.

Like Harries with Mag Chargers, and would use that technique with that lite. Like other techniques with Surefire and clones.

Fed, did not know the Surefire light was available 20 years ago.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Ok my point was in most situations getting the light and putting it on the rail would take some time in a defensive situation. If I were opining doors and such I would really prefer to have the XM-200. I can't afford both a normal mini and a weapon light(even though the XM-200 can be used as a mini). I'm just thinking that in a dark situation i would already have the light out and maybe not my pistol. By the way when the light is attached to the gun you are pointing both at anything your looking at. I"m really trying to decide on a solution that is best for most situations. Man its really tempting with the rail on my Taurus begging to have something on it.
 

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Ok my point was in most situations getting the light and putting it on the rail would take some time in a defensive situation
It takes about as long as inserting a magazine into the gun and racking the slide. Its not a big deal.

They are powerful enough that you can use it by itself. If you think you'll need the gun, you simply snap it on it.

Most have a switch with 2 positions, ON and Pressure ON, meaning that as long as your finger is on it its on.

Lights are bullet magnets.
That is true. Thats why sometimes it may be a good idea to have the pressure switch in use. You can just turn it on and off to your advantage.
 

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Here's why I don't carry a weapon mounted light for CHL. I did love them for LEO work though, and had an M6 mounted all the time.

1. The light needs to be independant of the gun because 99.9999% of the time you will be using as a....? You guessed it, "light."

2. There is very little chance that I will need one to do a building search. Clearing a building alone is PLAN STUPID. If I did have to clear one to save my S.O. etc, I can do it just as well with the Harries or other method.

3. Using an M3 as a light is a dead give away that you have a GUN on you.

4. For the .0001% chance of needing one over a regular light, it's not worth the $$$$$

YMMV, and YDFTMR...
 

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I agree with you oregonshooter. I don't have to clear buildings anymore either . I would my own house if i had to .I still have my old 3D mag-lite for that if i had a need for it. But these days ....its just a light. I have tritium on my Glock and with the light that is in my house at night anyway I can just as easily find the light switch.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Good link QKShooter that what I'm perplexed about. There are serious trade offs with either weapon mounted and hand held techniques. Also the XM-200 is $250 as most minis are under $100. If I had the money I would buy the weapon light giving me the choice as to mount it or not. This is still a bit much right now. I'll probably get a mini to start off with and then maybe get a weapon light later. It makes more since to have a light mounted to a long gun as you will have both hands occupied and there are easy adapters for rails with minis.
 

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As a civilian I don't plan on doing any house clearings; I will call 911 if a problem. But on the street I may want to identify people near or approaching me, see if they are carrying weapons, ascertain if any people in the shadow and maybe blind or disorient them with light. For these uses I like a surefire I can draw with my weak hand. If it comes to shooting I figure the dark is my friend and with tritium night sight I really don't need a flashlight to shot accurately. Besides I doubt if I will be in a situation where it is totally dark, so once I ID people as hostile I should be able to keep track of their location. But I don't want to give them a bright, steady light to shoot at.
 

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For a police officer who points a gun at most everyone whom he/she encounters in a house, I could see the use of a weapon mounted light. For a CCW permit holder, who doesn't point his gun at everyone in the dark, nor need to as it is probably a family member getting a drink in the middle of the night, I keep my Brinkman Maxfire in my jacket or pants. I use the light more as a light and less as a defensive light. Comes in handly when making deliveries at night.

Don't know the fancy teminolgoy for the technique I use but here goes: Weak hand holding flashlight (tail cap equipped) with forearm perpendicular to strong hand, forming a + when viewed from the top. I was trained in cop school this way. No constant ON mode. Just pulse. Pulse, move, pulse, move. The less time they see the light the better the chance they won't know where you are. Illuminate the hands and then the face. Check for weapons and then blind them with the light so they can see you, then make your move.
 

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I carry just a small 2 AA flashlight on my belt similar to a maglight except it has a rubber thumb switch on the end for easy on easy off. I use it more for general use and just make sure I have fresh batteries in it. For low light I’ve found the CT laser grips to be more useful.
 
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