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Discussion Starter #1
As can be seen from my various posts, I'm interested in saps, blackjacks and similar impact weapons. There is a reason behind this.

Next year I'll be starting work as a bouncer, or as we are now referred to in most Australian states, a 'Crowd Controller' at a nightclub interstate (going to a better university in a state that offers better career prospects and very very low regulation of weapons), and I'm considering what sort of an impact tool to purchase.

The conventional option of an expanable, straight or tonfa baton is not wise in an environment where crowds are likely to be injured by a backswing, and there is an increased danger relating to baton retention. A monodock (sp?) autolock jr. is out due to the difficulty of obtaining import documentation for expandables (they are a prohibited import, but what's already in the country is not affected).

Blackjacks, saps and similar weapons, due to their extreme obscurity in Australia, are not prohibited imports. Hence my researching them. Basically I need an impact tool that I can use in a similar manner to a baton.

So, in the field of saps, blackjacks, and moderately compact other impact tools, what offers the best transfer of energy, compact size and ease of retention, what is best for a nightclub environment?
 

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Phil Elmore, What were those things we talked about a few months ago???

I think they were called Stingers or something. Kindof like a single brass knuckle (plastic).

It's sold as a "Deep massage tool"
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I've had a play with my security trainer's comtech stingers, and I'm not big on them.
 

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IMO, the round, 14-16 oz. blackjacks are going to hit the hardest. However, the flat-saps are generally easier to conceal. The flat-saps are nice because you can strike or slap with the flat portion. If more concentrated force is desired you can strike with the edge in the same way you'd slash with a knife.
Either tool, combined with some solid empty-hand skills, will serve you well.
 

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Disko:
Have you ever heard of a Handler-12? It's 3/4" wide spring steel, covered in black rubber, formed into what looks like 18" of Shepherd's crook. It's a control, restraint, and impact device. Some correctional insitutions use them to not only strike offensively like a mini PR-24, but can defend and lock wrists and arms up when you take the joker to the wall for control before you move them from point A to B. We use them in our hospital setting to control violent crazy persons (California 5150's). These devices come with a holster that also houses cuffs and worn on your regular belt sits on your hip vertically with the blunt probe-end (grip) snuggly resting against your ribs up under your bicep. The device was invented by a Japanese martial artist, then sold to a man who owns Gripton International that continues to make the device. He trains instructors himself and travels to train as well. If interested in looking at the device, contact me @ [email protected] and I'll send you a few jpegs. Best wishes.
 

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I've seen some police supply catalogs that carry a pair of gloves with a pocket in the palms weighted with lead pellets...you can make a hardened fist and strike with extra momentum, plus have the added protection on your knuckles.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Team American, sap gloves are a prohib import as well :(

Bad Lieutenant, I've sent you a blank email, I'd love a few pics!
 

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disko said:
Team American, sap gloves are a prohib import as well :(
Dang! You really do have to get creative Down Under :nono:

Next I suppose you'll tell me it's unlawful to smack 'em with an ice cold schooner of V.B. :image035:
 

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smack 'em with an ice cold schooner of V.B.
That made me think - hmmm - have a handy bedroom mini freezer and keep inside a bag of ice in a super strong poly' bag - grab that when needed.

The evidence melts :18:
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Team American said:
ice cold schooner of V.B. :image035:
I drink my V.B. out of PINTS, not SCHOONERS thank you very much!! (its an interstate rivalry thing.... NSW scum drink schooners, people from the home of Vic Bitter drink pints)
 

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Chris, you could be on your way to a new nickname...Mr. Freeze!




nah, not catchy enough to replace S&S...:stups:

:rofl:
 

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disko said:
I drink my V.B. out of PINTS, not SCHOONERS thank you very much!! (its an interstate rivalry thing.... NSW scum drink schooners, people from the home of Vic Bitter drink pints)
Best beer in the world, I believe!


Sorry about the confusion...no one here would mistake you for NSW scum :rofl:
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Har har har very funny.

Tis one of the finest beers in the world.

I start my evening with a few Beck's then I get into the Vic.
 

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Impact Kerambit (NOT the knife based on the impact design) can't be beat. Small, unobtrusive, light and looks harmless. Some of them even have hex shaped cutouts that can be used as a "wrench!" One of the best weapons is that which does not appear to BE a weapon.
 

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When I was a "doorman" I always found great use for a 3-D cell Maglite. It sat well on the shoulder providing a temporary blinding flash to the eyes and could be followed thru with a nice overhand noggin thump if needed. It was also heavy enough that a short telescoped swing to the "undercarriage" got immediate compliance. I also liked it for walking the barmaids to their cars after a shift. It allowed one to light up dark corners and under and inside cars.

However, I would have carried a flat sap, if allowed by law, in addition to the light in a heart beat.

Edited to add: One more experienced fella used a cut down section of stock cane (hooked top). The shaft length was about 14". To escort out he would grab a hand full of collar and push forward while the cane crook sat nestled against the "twig and berries" between the legs providing pressure back and up. Worked as well on the ladies as it did the gents.
 

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disko, So I take it that you have checked into the rules and regs of the establishment that you will be working for. What does their insurance company say?

If all that's done then......nothing very long. Nothing that you will have to put together or put on. I worked part time as a bouncer at a very large establishment in Mt. View Calif. before the coming of silicone valley. The entry way as most of the other parts of the place were very dark. We checked all I.D.'s at the door. I would check probably 200-300 during a shift. We had to have a flashlight that was fairly bright and fairly heavy as well. This was back before the high tech lights came out. I used a Mag Lite that took 4,size "C" batteries. This was the perfect combination of size and weight.

It would easily slip into the back pocket of jeans and was easy to "draw". If you can carry an impact weapon,I would suggest that you pick a SAP. At least 9" and 10oz.in weight. Make sure the strap fits through your fingers properly and it has just the right amount if flex in the handle.Get it in black so as to "dissappear" in a dimly lit room.

If your laws make it impossible to carry a 9" then try the 6 1/2 to 8" and 8 oz.

If I was you I'd have the light and SAP with me on duty to fend off the pint mugs.----
 

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I'll still make the statement, stay away from maglights as improvised impact weapons. To many cops have gotten into a bind, and several are in the great state of PA's pen for using them. I keep tossing this over in my head and wonder why the reach back for items that didnt really work. The sap was nice, but had a tendancy to cause concussions or permenant brain dammage, thus the reason its not allowed for carry by American officers (I see it sold, but dont know of a single dept that authorizes it). Best advice is enrole in a great martial arts training (I prefer Brizilian Jiu-Jitsu) and learn to work with a short staff. My other fear is that this thread may be a good reporter searching for a good story down under (but then again, I'm not a very trusting guy, go figgure).
 

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Before I work as a bouncer for almost 4 years in some of the biggest clubs here in Manila, provided close escort protection to foreign artist and celebrities. I carry an ASP 21 baton and Kubotan key chain, I used this weapons to subdue drunk guest or rowdy customers, wild fans and crowd control. I 'm a martial artist my background is Muay Thai, Aikido, Brazilian jujitsu and mixed martial arts. To be a good bouncer at least you have a background in martial arts, you must learn how to lock, hold and disarm him.Use your weapon to subdue and disarm a drunk and rowdy customers. But you should know to control your strikes or where to hit him. Or you will be in court for to much force resulting to injury. And most of all be a good pacifier, if you can talk to them in a nice way to to avoid confrontation do it. But you should always be in control of the situation. Goodluck and be safe.
 

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I agree. I've worked as a doorman in the past, and I must say that the most useful (and most used) skill for me was being able to talk down a situation from escalating. Depending on your surroundings, you'll find in varying degrees that folks are not always all that interested in drawing blood (and all that comes with it). If you paint them a picture in which they see nothing to lose if they simply cease and desist with being stupid, chances are they will. Everybody likes being treated like a human being, and many confrontations with bouncers occur because the former go about handling and/or "breaking-up" a potential fray with the full expectations and aspirations to bust heads and be assholes.

Now, that said, any amount of peacekeeping has to have at least double the amount of the steel to back it up, or else it's just like a failing economy--all paper, no metal. And I have had to drop a few morons on their ass and out the door for refusing to listen. Keep in mind that you are working in an establishment where they serve alcohol for consumption on the premises.

Is talking the best solution? Hell, no. However, mastering your "verbal Judo" will help immensely in separating situations of real calamity from those that would become calamitous if you go in trying to thread a screw with a hammer, if you know what I mean.

This has been my personal experience, at least. Yours may vary. Be safe, and enjoy your work.
 
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