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After watching news about what happened at Fort Hood a friend of mine called asking “How in the WORLD can someone get away with shooting SO MANY people on a military installation?”.

My friend (no military background) is like a lot of folks in thinking on an Army Post or other Military Installation – EVERYBODY HAS A GUN.

Reality is far from that.

Pull out a map of either Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi or Florida – randomly pick any rural neighborhood and they will be better armed than any military installation.

On any military installation (In the US) – the only armed people are the MP’s and they are only carrying a 9mm Beretta. Some soldiers may be armed at the firing range but that’s about it.

If you see a convoy of hummers on the road in the US – National Guard or other – you might think “Someone would be crazy to attack THEM” but even if they are going to the firing range – NO ONE’S ARMED! You drive to the range – They issue the firearms – you shoot \ qualify – TURN THEM BACK IN and drive back unarmed again.

That’s just the way it is. No off duty CC on base. Even the MP’s go to work unarmed – check out their weapon – do their shift – turn the weapon back in and go home…
 

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You are correct. Another shooting in another "gun free" zone.
It is a matter of fact that most of the military elite leaders are golfers and not gunners. They set the policy and it is going to get worse would be my hunch. Rumor for several years has been that soon, military will be forbidden from owning firearms.
Also, I thought that military people were taught to get out of the target zone yet, this guy was able to shoot for quite sometime and run up a body count similar to a basketball score.

Prayers to the families.
 

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I understand what you are saying , and I know it is true. I have two sons in the army. One in SanAntonio and the other in Afganestain.But I think it is better if the sheep out there think all military personal ARE ARMED. It will keep nut jobs from trying something.
 

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Most military bases are target rich environments, not much different than a school or a church.

They are picked for one reason....shock value.
 

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I understand the reason the military operates their bases this way, sort of. I also understand the right of each American to be a gun owner if they want to.

My question is this, if there had been other armed Soldiers at Ft. Hood (CCW or standard issue), how much more damage would have been done? I mean it was a Soldier who opened fire, so if the LEO that responded first walked in and saw many Soldiers with weapons drawn would she have been able to determine the cause of the shooting and take appropriate action?
 

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If you see a convoy of hummers on the road in the US – National Guard or other – you might think “Someone would be crazy to attack THEM” but even if they are going to the firing range – NO ONE’S ARMED! You drive to the range – They issue the firearms – you shoot \ qualify – TURN THEM BACK IN and drive back unarmed again.
Every Unit I've ever been in has had at least one armed guard every time our weapons left post.

My question is this, if there had been other armed Soldiers at Ft. Hood (CCW or standard issue), how much more damage would have been done? I mean it was a Soldier who opened fire, so if the LEO that responded first walked in and saw many Soldiers with weapons drawn would she have been able to determine the cause of the shooting and take appropriate action?
If there were that many armed soldiers the event would have been over before the Cops got there.

When I was in the Army commanders were held responsible for the actions of the troops under them. IOW if a soldier on leave in Texas was driving back to Ft. Carson and fell asleep at the wheel in New Mexico and died, his company commander was investigated to make sure that the commander had done every thing he could to ensure that this wouldn’t happen. (FWIW the above incident actually happened while I was on Ft. Carson.)

Therefore, in order to protect their careers, the chain of command becomes a nanny state. They check the fluid levels, the tire tread and the general roadworthiness of your privately owned vehicle before a long weekend. The hold a formation every Friday night and tell you not to get drunk, drink and drive or have unprotected sex. And they simply don’t allow anyone unrestricted access to firearms.
 

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I've got 17 years AD (Navy) and I've worked with Security (patrols) more than a few times on shore duty......albit limited, I'm a Submariner....and ArmyCop is correct WRT Base/Instalation security. That's how we (Navy) do it. No gun on base (a FEW exceptions....but NO CARRY) unless in a specific duty status.
 

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I always found it ironic that a military man might be required to kill an enemy with a tank,aircraft,submarine,button on a computer, or any kind of weapon designed to kill people, yet they couldnt be trusted with personal firearms on their own base.

Something is wrong with that picture.
 

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This has been Federal Law for years unfortunately. Why? I don't know, it makes no sense to me.

We would get ready to play war games during the Operational Readiness Inspections (ORIs) hre in the CONUS, and the scenario would be terrorists attacking the base. Okay, the problem is, the only thing we could do is report the positions of the attackers to Security Forces. And if they attacked us, all we could do is take cover because we have no frakking guns. The only personnel that are armed are security forces. An Air Base or Air Force Base is definitely a target rich environment.

Even in the AOR we aren't armed except for some locations downrange. If you're uprange in one of the bases in neighboring countries, it's the same damn thing: Only security forces are armed.

As a radio operator on active duty in the USAF, not assigned to a mobility or security forces squadron/group, the only time I ever got to hold a weapon in 23 years, was during M-16 qualifications.

Even during 9-11 when all bases were in Force Protection Condition Delta, only security forces were armed. That just plain sucks.
 

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Very good insight into actual practices and procedures. So how do you think Hasan got the guns into the base? Just smuggle them in his car? He'd have to have used concealment to get into the building where he did the shooting, or someone would notice the obvious fact that this guy's packing. And I believe he must have carried spare clips, given the number of wounded, unless some were hit by the same round. But on the positive side, the female LEO who stopped Hasan is going to make it. Her picture on Twitter looks like she's young and not very big, but she sure did her job well. We grow 'em tough in Texas!
 

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If there were that many armed soldiers the event would have been over before the Cops got there.
I didn't actually think about that. The Soldier closest to him could have responded and dropped him. I'm not all here today, tomorrow that may have been more apparent in my mind.
 

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I'm a vet, although it's been a long time,I always was under the assumption if an incident like this happened it was handled by military police! I didn't see a one! Why were civilian Police and Swat units on a military base? It was all military personnel,a military officer was the shooter on a military complex! Civilian Police don't even have juristicion or any authority on a military complex? Is that protocol that Civilian Police enter military bases in an event of a shooting?
 

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If you see a convoy of hummers on the road in the US – National Guard or other – you might think “Someone would be crazy to attack THEM” but even if they are going to the firing range – NO ONE’S ARMED! You drive to the range – They issue the firearms – you shoot \ qualify – TURN THEM BACK IN and drive back unarmed again.

QUOTE]

I was in the TA (territorial army) in the mid 1980's, it was at the time when the IRA were very active on the UK mainland, they had "hit" a number of TA barracks (TA is similar to the National Guard)
We would go on exercise armed to the teeth, SLR rifle 7.62, GPMG, stirling 9mm Sub guns etc.............. and Not a round between us!!!
The IRA could have held us up with a Gat Gun and there was nothing we could do about it:nutkick:
Even when the threat level was at it's highest (bikin red?) we were patroling around our barracks with our SLR rifles and no ammo:sheep:
There was a mag of 20rds in the guardhouse if we came under attack:spankme:
Oh to be 20 again and dumb!!!!!!

Tint Bob (UK)

PS Horrified that your guys are also in the same boat, I thought that all changed after Pearl Harbour???
 

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In my opinon this is a vent thread. Carry on military bases besides special duty personel or MP's is not going to happen.

Some silly ass officer will piss off some sgt that now has combat experience or some non rate and will get his head blow clean off.

You don't have to act on every impuse but if you have been in the military you know what I mean.
 

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less guns=more crime
 

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I am no longer in the military, but I have "involved" in some training on a couple of bases.
A few mo.s ago, I was part of a team, that was called in to assist a Base in laying the "ground work" to certify ROS for their indoor range.
( It seems that they will be using "civilians" in this capacity as opposed to Mil. personal. )

I also recently assisted the ARMY @ FT.LEWIS in putting on a large event for BSA. ( I as well as 5 other TC level CRSOs worked with the Mil. RSOs @ BSA instructors.

The reason I mention this is because, I have become "somewhat familiar" with the regs on firearms on the posts. = HIGHLY RESTRICTED to say the least. ( Basically = NO !!! unless highly restricted NEED TO. )

BTW, At many of our bases ( FT LEWIS included ) much of the "security ( gates, patrol ( some) ) is CIVILIAN. :ahhhhh:

As stated above, our bases, being "gun free zones" are "VUNERABLE to BGs

Here is "recent example from FT. Lewis LOCAL NEWS: Murder-suicide at Fort Lewis PX

Puffer
 

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I'm a vet, although it's been a long time,I always was under the assumption if an incident like this happened it was handled by military police! I didn't see a one! Why were civilian Police and Swat units on a military base? It was all military personnel,a military officer was the shooter on a military complex! Civilian Police don't even have juristicion or any authority on a military complex? Is that protocol that Civilian Police enter military bases in an event of a shooting?
A lot of bases have gotten away from military police or marines to guard them. They now have civilian contractors/police to do that. I remember when the Subbase in Groton CT stopped having the Marines guard the base. They even stopped lowering the Colors at night because the Marines were no longer there. However the excuse the commanding officer gave was that we work around the clock on the base. They do have it lighted at night as appropriate.
 

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ecbaatz, you beat me to it.
Yes, it is both shocking and cheezy to know that our own military no longer provide security for their bases [at least in some locations] and that the "rental guards" are often not armed.
This problem goes back to Lebanon where a suicide bomber knowing that our Marine was unarmed, drove past him laughing and on into the base killing a bunch of our Marines.
Once again, we [U.S. military] look like fools.
 

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Some silly ass officer will piss off some sgt that now has combat experience or some non rate and will get his head blow clean off.

Are you aware that you’re parroting the same “The streets will run W/ blood and there will be shoot outs over parking spots” argument that the antis advanced when we first started getting shall issue legislation passed?

These same NCOs are carrying off post (except in Alaska) and they’re not killing their officers.
 
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