We were having a debate on non lethal carries here at work and I was wondering what are your views on a non lethal carry for a 2nd carry. Would you, do you, and what non lethal do you feel is best and why? The majority here at work seem to think pepper spray is the best to carry as to not use lethal force unless necessary. I think pepper spray has flaws like indoor use and think maybe a taser might be a better choice. I value your opinions and would like to hear them on this subject.
Non lethal carry choices?
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Pepper spray is easier to carry and conceal than the Taser. If you understand its limitations, I believe it is a better choice for a civvie (you don't have armed backup if you miss/Taser fails). OC gel is good stuff, indoors.
Taser is definitely out there and available, but I still see it as a bit too high-tech for the carried-much-used-once-in-a-blue-moon role. Reliability is paramount when you're on your own (CCW), and OC/CS, to me, has the historical edge at this time.
Taser is definitely out there and available, but I still see it as a bit too high-tech for the carried-much-used-once-in-a-blue-moon role. Reliability is paramount when you're on your own (CCW), and OC/CS, to me, has the historical edge at this time.
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The oc spray is a good option but take my advice and stay away from the gels and foams. Just get the standard liquid stream stuff. If you have to spray someone with foam or gel then its a possibility that they will wipe it off and throw it back at you. I've seen this done before in person, I used to have the foam at work but we switched to the stream.
As for the stun gun - I dont have any experience with them but I've heard that it can cause heart attacks in some instances. I wouldnt want that if your going for less than lethal.
As for the stun gun - I dont have any experience with them but I've heard that it can cause heart attacks in some instances. I wouldnt want that if your going for less than lethal.
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Mojoski said:
Oleoresin Capsicum is what O.C. stands for
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The best "non-denominational" analysis I've encountered:Mojoski said:
http://www.totalprotectioninteractive.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2545&highlight=spray
Register to view.
"Pepper Spray Primer" is the title, if it doesn't take you directly there, after registration.
I used OC quite a bit as a Corrections Officer, the downside is it doesn't work on everyone, and you always get some of it on you. But when it works, it works great.
I like Sabre Red and the FOX labs products.
I carry OC, SIG 226,1 reload and a Kershaw/Ken Onion folder.
I also have a kubaton that I have trained with and carry occasionally, but for legal purposes (batons are civilian no-nos in Tx) I prefer to use a surefire or mini mag for the same tactics.
I like Sabre Red and the FOX labs products.
I carry OC, SIG 226,1 reload and a Kershaw/Ken Onion folder.
I also have a kubaton that I have trained with and carry occasionally, but for legal purposes (batons are civilian no-nos in Tx) I prefer to use a surefire or mini mag for the same tactics.
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Non-Leathal?
First, ny impresions/opinions on OC. OC is unreliable, you have to remember to shake it before you use it [ who to hell is going to either remember that or have the time to do it? ]. It doesn't work on everyone and you will get it on you likely as others have mentioned.
Non-lethal for me is H2H skills, Kubaton, stick off the ground, or a rock [ not for throwing ], ashtray at the bar, curtain rod, whatever I can get into my hands thats convenient at the time.
Out in the open and caught unaware [ unlikely ], or when flying, I have a delrin rod kubaton [ and have the knowledge/training to use it effectively ], or my keyring.
I won't let my wife carry OC either, she'll only get into more trouble trying to use it if she could get to it and have the time to shake it, and not get it all over herself.
Brownie
First, ny impresions/opinions on OC. OC is unreliable, you have to remember to shake it before you use it [ who to hell is going to either remember that or have the time to do it? ]. It doesn't work on everyone and you will get it on you likely as others have mentioned.
Non-lethal for me is H2H skills, Kubaton, stick off the ground, or a rock [ not for throwing ], ashtray at the bar, curtain rod, whatever I can get into my hands thats convenient at the time.
Out in the open and caught unaware [ unlikely ], or when flying, I have a delrin rod kubaton [ and have the knowledge/training to use it effectively ], or my keyring.
I won't let my wife carry OC either, she'll only get into more trouble trying to use it if she could get to it and have the time to shake it, and not get it all over herself.
Brownie
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I have pretty much given up on OC as well.
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I don't mean to be a nit-picker, but I've noticed LEO's like to reffer to OC, Tazers, ect as "less than lethal," no longer, "non lethal," for liability issues (The fact that all of these "non-lethal methods have killed people from time to time)
I dont have experience carrying less than lethal weapons, but I do take interest in the subject so I talk to alot of LEO's and friends that are LEO. In fact, last weekend I was doing a ride-a-long with my brother (A local deputy) and the deputies were talking about how the Sheriff asked them which less than lethal they want to get rid of (because of all the complaints of running out of room in their belts). They all said the same thing, "they do all take up alot of space, but every one is worth having. They all do one thing better than the others."
I completely agree with them, and for good reason. Every less than lethal weapon seems to kick-butt in certain situations. It's just my opinion, but it would seem that less than lethals should be treated just like a firearm. Learn what it can and can't do, and try to use the ltl to the best of it's abilities.
As for recomendations. I've heard good talk about Fox Labs typically, but I've also heard some complaints about them. First Defense seems to get nothing but praises, and that is what I would recomend if somebody personally asked me.
I dont have experience carrying less than lethal weapons, but I do take interest in the subject so I talk to alot of LEO's and friends that are LEO. In fact, last weekend I was doing a ride-a-long with my brother (A local deputy) and the deputies were talking about how the Sheriff asked them which less than lethal they want to get rid of (because of all the complaints of running out of room in their belts). They all said the same thing, "they do all take up alot of space, but every one is worth having. They all do one thing better than the others."
I completely agree with them, and for good reason. Every less than lethal weapon seems to kick-butt in certain situations. It's just my opinion, but it would seem that less than lethals should be treated just like a firearm. Learn what it can and can't do, and try to use the ltl to the best of it's abilities.
As for recomendations. I've heard good talk about Fox Labs typically, but I've also heard some complaints about them. First Defense seems to get nothing but praises, and that is what I would recomend if somebody personally asked me.
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I'm ASP certified, but I very rarely carry a baton anymore. I'm only suposed to use my baton in the same situations as I would a gun. Since that's the case, I would rather use the more powerful and effective means to defend myself. The only advantages the ASP would have, then, is if I had a bad backstop and wouldn't want to shoot and risk harming an innocent person, or if there were places I could not legally carry my guan but could take my ASP. And I dropped the ASP almost entirely because I felt my knife was much more effective, more concealable, and I could also use it for utility purposes.
I've never been a big fan of OC, though it's certainly better than no defensive weapon, and good for people unwilling on unable to carry firearms. In high school, a class had to be evacuated because a girl's OC spray leaked into the room and made everyone start gagging. I'd hate for that to happen to me, or end up downwind of my own spray!
I've never been a big fan of OC, though it's certainly better than no defensive weapon, and good for people unwilling on unable to carry firearms. In high school, a class had to be evacuated because a girl's OC spray leaked into the room and made everyone start gagging. I'd hate for that to happen to me, or end up downwind of my own spray!
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Only non leithal i carry is a large folding knife , it can be pressed into service as a fairly effective kuboton or yarwa if needed . Best advise is avoid conflict tho especialy as a ccw . Remember there is going to be at least one gun present at if not involved in any confrentation you get into .
To me the primo non-firearm is the blade and the ASP. No sprays for me.
I have been undergoing training on the use of my ASP26 for some time now and it just gets better and better. The weapon can be very devistating.
Lessons learned --> the ASP is fairly big/heavy. My mod is 24oz.,10"closed,26" open,1.03"wide at handle,and I added a endcap that keeps the hand from slipping off the handle that is 1.4" wide.
It is much easier to carry it in your back pocket than in a holster on your belt. I'm used to grabbin' at my Kimber and the end of the ASP rides too high for me.
To present closed is one thing,to open it you CAN'T be in a confined space.
It WILL NOT open quietly and closes even louder. When opened,it gives out a loud "ker thunk". The + is that most people don't seem to know what this sound is vs. the rack of a slide,pump of a scattergun,or the click of a safety.
Like Betty sez, if the situation is that bad,why not just present your firearm? Or......,a blade drawn accross the forearm or thigh would be allot more devistating than gettin' even a hard WHACK !! with the ASP.
In (I believe) most states,even if you can legally carry a ASP it is treated as a concealed weapon and you can't "display it or otherwise let people see it. You can't pull it out to hammer in a protruding nail and such. So dropped into your pocket, it still has to have a shirt tail pulled down over it.
Application -> for me I would want it for the panhandler that seems to want to get too close and/or too agressive and your fairly certin that he does not have a weapon. Understanding that if he majically comes up with a blade,length of pipe,broken,bottle,piece of chain,etc.,I'm not gonna stand and fight him with the ASP anyway. This, if he's just open hand. Also this would(by me)be reported to 911 ASAP, just the same as a firearm.
Also for one of them sweeeeet dogs that"never would bite anyone","he'll just lick you to death". Yeah right. You surely don't want to splatter his sweetness all over the sweet ol' grammy but you gotta defend yourself. Give him a couple of whacks to bring the kindness out in him. Grammy will ultimately be grateful. A lady down the street carries one while walking her baby in the baby carridge. The holster is attached to the handle of her stroller.
Anyway,I feel that the ASP has a purpose in our collection of equipment that will help us defend ourselves and loved ones. I would highly reccommend that before you carry one you get some training as to how to deploy it effectively. It will certinly enlighten you. ----------
I have been undergoing training on the use of my ASP26 for some time now and it just gets better and better. The weapon can be very devistating.
Lessons learned --> the ASP is fairly big/heavy. My mod is 24oz.,10"closed,26" open,1.03"wide at handle,and I added a endcap that keeps the hand from slipping off the handle that is 1.4" wide.
It is much easier to carry it in your back pocket than in a holster on your belt. I'm used to grabbin' at my Kimber and the end of the ASP rides too high for me.
To present closed is one thing,to open it you CAN'T be in a confined space.
It WILL NOT open quietly and closes even louder. When opened,it gives out a loud "ker thunk". The + is that most people don't seem to know what this sound is vs. the rack of a slide,pump of a scattergun,or the click of a safety.
Like Betty sez, if the situation is that bad,why not just present your firearm? Or......,a blade drawn accross the forearm or thigh would be allot more devistating than gettin' even a hard WHACK !! with the ASP.
In (I believe) most states,even if you can legally carry a ASP it is treated as a concealed weapon and you can't "display it or otherwise let people see it. You can't pull it out to hammer in a protruding nail and such. So dropped into your pocket, it still has to have a shirt tail pulled down over it.
Application -> for me I would want it for the panhandler that seems to want to get too close and/or too agressive and your fairly certin that he does not have a weapon. Understanding that if he majically comes up with a blade,length of pipe,broken,bottle,piece of chain,etc.,I'm not gonna stand and fight him with the ASP anyway. This, if he's just open hand. Also this would(by me)be reported to 911 ASAP, just the same as a firearm.
Also for one of them sweeeeet dogs that"never would bite anyone","he'll just lick you to death". Yeah right. You surely don't want to splatter his sweetness all over the sweet ol' grammy but you gotta defend yourself. Give him a couple of whacks to bring the kindness out in him. Grammy will ultimately be grateful. A lady down the street carries one while walking her baby in the baby carridge. The holster is attached to the handle of her stroller.
Anyway,I feel that the ASP has a purpose in our collection of equipment that will help us defend ourselves and loved ones. I would highly reccommend that before you carry one you get some training as to how to deploy it effectively. It will certinly enlighten you. ----------
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