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Yep. Shotguns went the way of the DoDo bird, to be replaced first by AR15s and surplus M16s, and now M4s.
 
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It was a costly way to learn a lesson. As for shotguns, they still have their place.
 

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It was a costly way to learn a lesson. As for shotguns, they still have their place.
And in their place they are amazingly effective!

Law enforcement in the United States was bound by decades of tradition and hampered by fear of change. Police elsewhere in the world were carrying semi-auto pistols and carbines or in some cases submachine guns for decades before North Hollywood opened our collective eyes here. It is all a matter of using the right tool for the job at hand. Before I left my department they were issuing surplus M-16s that had to be converted to semi auto (strict accountability on fire control parts) and trading the old 870s in on Benelli semi auto shotguns.
 

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Lets hope they changed the policy on no headshots to available center mass.
 

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I know the carbine thing has been hashed and rehashed since the robbery, but the thing that sticks out in my mind is that the number of 125 gr .38 Special slugs dug out of the perps body armor where totally out of proportion to the number of .38 rounds vs 9mm fired in the engagement. Neither were effective, but the limited number of revolver operators were getting a significantly higher hit %.
 

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I know the carbine thing has been hashed and rehashed since the robbery, but the thing that sticks out in my mind is that the number of 125 gr .38 Special slugs dug out of the perps body armor where totally out of proportion to the number of .38 rounds vs 9mm fired in the engagement. Neither were effective, but the limited number of revolver operators were getting a significantly higher hit %.
That's fascinating. I'll have to google that for more info.
 

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The thing to remember is that politicians hold the purse strings for law enforcement and the military. They undoubtedly were worried about their collective reelections and the "optics" of arming the LAPD with nefarious assault rifles. Rest assured that the LA politicians only committed the money and resources to better arm the LAPD only after their polling showed it would help their reelection bids.
 

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Wasn't this the shooting where the bad guys fired like 1200 rounds of armor piercing ammo and still no one died? I often use it in arguments against "assault weapon" and "high capacity magazine" bans.


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Frankly even if the cops had AR I dont think it would have helped ..Dont forgot they went to the local gun store and got some not sure if they even used them ..As I recale one guy shot himself after his hand was hit and the other was shot in the foot and then head or the such

They were wearing hard armor ....Hint hint 556 wont go though hard armor they had steel plate on ..Maybe it would have incress the odds of a shot finding a weak point ..But they would have still been going up to guys with full armor and armed with two full auto AK with drum mags and a full auto bushmaster and a semi atuo HK91A3 with a drum mag ..Massive ammonts of firepower to try to aim at ... They I dont think had AP china steel core maybe but it is not true AP ammo

And yeah it was luck no one die other then the perps


Really more then any thing they just needed swat or somone who could use a gun at longer range..
 

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Frankly even if the cops had AR I dont think it would have helped ..Dont forgot they went to the local gun store and got some not sure if they even used them ..As I recale one guy shot himself after his hand was hit and the other was shot in the foot and then head or the such

They were wearing hard armor ....Hint hint 556 wont go though hard armor they had steel plate on ..Maybe it would have incress the odds of a shot finding a weak point ..But they would have still been going up to guys with full armor and armed with two full auto AK with drum mags and a full auto bushmaster and a semi atuo HK91A3 with a drum mag ..Massive ammonts of firepower to try to aim at ... They I dont think had AP china steel core maybe but it is not true AP ammo

And yeah it was luck no one die other then the perps


Really more then any thing they just needed swat or somone who could use a gun at longer range..
And this was part of the debate within my department. Early on they had not defined the purpose of the new long gun. As I asked one of the sergeants on the committee "Do you want to extend the head shot range of your pistol or do you want a real rifle?" With the geographical diversity of the county, and the fact that officers in the more remote and rural areas (with extended ranges as well) might be waiting half an hour for back up, and the deal we could get on the M-16s it was decided to go with them as opposed to a pistol caliber carbine.
 

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And this was part of the debate within my department. Early on they had not defined the purpose of the new long gun. As I asked one of the sergeants on the committee "Do you want to extend the head shot range of your pistol or do you want a real rifle?" With the geographical diversity of the county, and the fact that officers in the more remote and rural areas (with extended ranges as well) might be waiting half an hour for back up, and the deal we could get on the M-16s it was decided to go with them as opposed to a pistol caliber carbine.

A good idea I think ..I am a big fan of rual or small town cops having AR or semi M16 in the cars as you mentioned back up could be hours away ..Esp in small towns in big states like TX or such ...

In a big town ..I am not sure esp if it not controled well on training or what is issued or not ..We have had case here in AZ where the cops used perosnal AR in some pretty gray arrea shootings and it would turn out it he had some offesnive saying on his dust cover on his rifle ..So yeah with training and the ok and look over AR should be issued to cops if there is a need ..
 

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I remember a meeting with the Sheriff shortly after this happened.
Our county is 90% rural often with only two deputies on duty. He took us (Reserve Deputies) through every squad and we had to qualify on each weapon that might be available to us. NOTHING was standard equipment. Every Deputy had something different. Most had bolt action rifles with a couple of Mini 14's in the mix. Every squad had a shotgun, but none were the same (Remington, Mossberg, Ithica, S&W).

It wasn't too long after that they began standardizing across the department and with the local PD's in the county. It was kind of fun getting trained with the new equipment and not having to remember what squad had what.

Oh, Reserves got first chance at the surplus equipment. I still have the series 180 Mini 14 I got for $150 and a Mossberg 500 that does HD duty.

They've changed pistols a number of times since then, but the long guns are all AR platform and shotguns are 870's.
 

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I remember a meeting with the Sheriff shortly after this happened.
Our county is 90% rural often with only two deputies on duty. He took us (Reserve Deputies) through every squad and we had to qualify on each weapon that might be available to us. NOTHING was standard equipment. Every Deputy had something different. Most had bolt action rifles with a couple of Mini 14's in the mix. Every squad had a shotgun, but none were the same (Remington, Mossberg, Ithica, S&W).

It wasn't too long after that they began standardizing across the department and with the local PD's in the county. It was kind of fun getting trained with the new equipment and not having to remember what squad had what.

Oh, Reserves got first chance at the surplus equipment. I still have the series 180 Mini 14 I got for $150 and a Mossberg 500 that does HD duty.

They've changed pistols a number of times since then, but the long guns are all AR platform and shotguns are 870's.

Reminds me of a thread on the S&W foroum I read where people who were current or ex police talked about what long guns they carried back in the day ..Was pretty cool ..A few of them (Ohio ??) had dep issued guns I think minis in a fancy locking case ..But most carried what ever .... A lot of them were WW2/Korean vets or know some who were and they had heavy stuff mp40,thommy guns etc ..One guy remember a riot he was in the 60s where the old sarg pulled out the tommy and empty the mag over the head of the riots ..That stopped them

A lot of them carried M1/M2 carbins and latter AK and the like ..Some of the good old boys have there full bore hunting rifles with them ..



In some ways yeah it is good the dep all go AR pretty much now ...Still would be cool to see a cop pull a mp40 out the trunk lol
 
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Thread derail.

I did a prisoner transfer to Wisconsin a few years back. While waiting for the paperwork, one of the Deputies asked if I liked old weapons. He took me to their armory and in the middle of the room was a Ma Deuce!
From some of the stories I've heard, there was quite a bit of surplus equipment farmed out to LE after WWII. Would be fun to bum around to different departments just to see what's there.
 
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What amazed me in this one, is how much prep , etc. the robbers went and the degree they took it.... not sure their real purpose was to rob the bank, or an attempt to go down in flames and take on the local police dept. it definitely caused a lot of Dept's to reassess firepower vs what they could encounter or have to fight against........... and gave police officers a leg to argue for AR's.

World's Scariest Police Shootouts 6 - North Hollywood Bank Robbery Documentary 2016
 

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Frankly even if the cops had AR I dont think it would have helped ..Dont forgot they went to the local gun store and got some not sure if they even used them ..As I recale one guy shot himself after his hand was hit and the other was shot in the foot and then head or the such

They were wearing hard armor ....Hint hint 556 wont go though hard armor they had steel plate on ..Maybe it would have incress the odds of a shot finding a weak point ..But they would have still been going up to guys with full armor and armed with two full auto AK with drum mags and a full auto bushmaster and a semi atuo HK91A3 with a drum mag ..Massive ammonts of firepower to try to aim at ... They I dont think had AP china steel core maybe but it is not true AP ammo

And yeah it was luck no one die other then the perps


Really more then any thing they just needed swat or somone who could use a gun at longer range..
I disagree. It would have extended their range and allowed head shots.
 
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