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Looks like NYC's "stop and frisk" policy is about to go bye-bye. According to the records the policy is appearing racist and ineffective:
"In 2012, police made 533,042 stops under the program, and roughly 87 percent were of blacks or Hispanics. In the vast majority of these stops – about 9 in 10 – those stopped walked away without being arrested or even ticketed."
 

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Those statistics cut both ways - that says that 53,000 people who were stopped did NOT get away without some sort of legal intervention. Without further study or interpretation I'd hold off on calling that "ineffective."

As for "profiling" - I think the Israelis seem to use that approach to their benefit. I'm not ready to call it "bad", but I'm also no friend of the ACLU.
 

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Point is, they were stopped with no pc except how they looked. I still remember in San Diego in the early 90's black Marines were stopped by police and photographed/id'ed just b/c of the clothes they wore. These Marines had only been in CA for a couple of weeks and were waiting to ship out to the Middle East. As I understand it, this isn't anywhere close to the professional and trained tactics the Israeli's use.
 

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Looks like NYC's "stop and frisk" policy is about to go bye-bye. According to the records the policy is appearing racist and ineffective:
"In 2012, police made 533,042 stops under the program, and roughly 87 percent were of blacks or Hispanics. In the vast majority of these stops – about 9 in 10 – those stopped walked away without being arrested or even ticketed."
The other half of the impact is: deterrence. It's hard to say what the impact is, in terms of how many criminals just felt the heat was too heavy so that they went elsewhere or ratcheted down their criminality.

NY CLU's summary, 2002-2012: Stop-and-Frisk Data | New York Civil Liberties Union (NYCLU) - American Civil Liberties Union of New York State

N.Y. CPL. LAW § 140.50: Temporary questioning of persons in public places; search for weapons.

1. In addition to the authority provided by this article for making an arrest without a warrant, a police officer may stop a person in a public place located within the geographical area of such officer's employment when he reasonably suspects that such person is committing, has committed or is about to commit either (a) a felony or (b) a misdemeanor defined in the penal law, and may demand of him his name, address and an explanation of his conduct.
 

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Dont see anything in that quoted law about frisking though. If theres no pc to stop there should be no stop, contact, questioning, or demanding of anything by LEO anyplace. But thats just me:blink:
 
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Let me know when they are both on the deck and out for the count and I'll clap for joy. :bier:
 

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The standard for an SQF (Stop question frisk) is reasonable suspicion, or artucuable suspicion. The law allowed for a police officer to use the common law right to inquiery. The same right we all enjoy. The person is not in custody, and my leave at any time. The person is under no obligation to cooperate. The law allows for an officer to FRISK! the person stopped for weapons only, this being done for officer safety. The term frisk is described as a cursery search or pat down of a subjects outer clothing only.

This thing that IMO Bloomburg has the NYPD violating both the letter, and the spirit of the law is an abomination. Their excuse that it save's lives is bunk! SQF is an investigative tool for patrol officers, not a pre-emptive
 

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The standard for an SQF (Stop question frisk) is reasonable suspicion, or artucuable suspicion. The law allowed for a police officer to use the common law right to inquiery.
Two major problems in having this discussion.

1) Human nature is involved. Impossible to discuss (profiling) w/o first turning off the politically correct filter.
2) The (LAW). What law? Who's law? You mean corrupt laws written by people who have or had pecuniary interest?

The (LAW) is continually molested, changed and interpreted.

Baseball fans may yell and scream; but it is not a ball or a strike until the ump calls it.
 

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when he reasonably suspects that such person is about to commit either (a) a felony or (b) a misdemeanor

without pc this calls for psychic abilities .....
 

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Did they stop and frisk Bloomberg?
 

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1. In addition to the authority provided by this article for making an arrest without a warrant, a police officer may stop a person in a public place located within the geographical area of such officer's employment when he reasonably suspects that such person is committing, has committed or is about to commit either (a) a felony or (b) a misdemeanor defined in the penal law, and may demand of him his name, address and an explanation of his conduct.
Of course, if you are engaged in criminal activity, you can not be forced to talk to the police. Self incrimination.
 

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Those statistics cut both ways - that says that 53,000 people who were stopped did NOT get away without some sort of legal intervention. Without further study or interpretation I'd hold off on calling that "ineffective."

As for "profiling" - I think the Israelis seem to use that approach to their benefit. I'm not ready to call it "bad", but I'm also no friend of the ACLU.
Although I am NO fan of any officer or government entity over stepping their bounds, Gasmitty has a point. When I worked as a drug interdiction officer I made literally HUNDREDS of vehicle stops trying to interdict drug traffic/trade. Of the stops I made 95% (actual percentage was like 94.6% calculated) of the stops I made were on white/caucasians. The reason for this was that was the predominant ethnic group in our jurisdiction. If an NYPD officer is patrolling in an area that has, lets say, 90% Latinos, then the overwhelming percentage of his interactions will reflect that demographic. As to the question of probable cause for the Stop & Frisk, I can't say if they had it or not. I can tell you every beat cop I know would not waste time indiscriminately searching folks, its a huge waste of time and energy. As to the issue of "profiling", this is an old term that keeps getting kicked out there. The truth is when I conducted interdiction stops I would never had been as successful as I was IF I HAD actually profiled someone. By demographics I would have missed the 90+ white guys carrying dope while looking for the one odd black fella. Indicators, which I will not go into in depth for professional reasons, are completely different. However, the guy going down the street with Crips or Bloods colors, favoring his right side, with his hoodie pulled up in mid-summer, that's an indicator....oh yeah, I'm going to introduce myself regardless of skin color.
 

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Race can, and probably will be a huge contrbutor to a SQF. Anyone who thinks different needs a reality check. However profiling has absoloutly no place in any kind of police work. Race is incidental to a stop.... not the reason for the stop. Cops in lets say a hispanic neighborhood will of course tend to stop more hispanics.

If an officer knows that most robberies in an area is commited by hispanic males so he stop and frisks 10 hispanics based on the knowlege..This is profiling, and should be addressed as a disciplinary problem. If that same officer recieve a radio message that a male hispanic wearing white sneakers, and a blue jacket just robbed a Bodega (thats for Hoppyard), and that officers stops 10 hispanics with white sneakers and blue jackets he's doing IMO good police work.

I defined the traditional description of a SQF in a prior post. This was the definition of an SQF as handed down by the NYPD legal department. I have major issues with the crap the NYPD is pulling these days. The concept the NYPD uses these days is that most gun violence is commited by young blacks, and hispanics. Having that mindset, they authorize the police to stop, and search young black and hispanic people. What the police are doing is targeting specific communities, and specific members of that community to be acosted and searched. Based on race and age. This is racial profiling. Not stop n frisk. I dont know if anyone else is aware but King Bloomburg also banned large soft drinks, also gave edict that any women giving birth at a city hospital may not use commercial formula, but must breast feed.
 

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Race can, and probably will be a huge contrbutor to a SQF. Anyone who thinks different needs a reality check. However profiling has absoloutly no place in any kind of police work. Race is incidental to a stop.... not the reason for the stop. Cops in lets say a hispanic neighborhood will of course tend to stop more hispanics.

If an officer knows that most robberies in an area is commited by hispanic males so he stop and frisks 10 hispanics based on the knowlege..This is profiling, and should be addressed as a disciplinary problem. If that same officer recieve a radio message that a male hispanic wearing white sneakers, and a blue jacket just robbed a Bodega (thats for Hoppyard), and that officers stops 10 hispanics with white sneakers and blue jackets he's doing IMO good police work.

I defined the traditional description of a SQF in a prior post. This was the definition of an SQF as handed down by the NYPD legal department. I have major issues with the crap the NYPD is pulling these days. The concept the NYPD uses these days is that most gun violence is commited by young blacks, and hispanics. Having that mindset, they authorize the police to stop, and search young black and hispanic people. What the police are doing is targeting specific communities, and specific members of that community to be acosted and searched. Based on race and age. This is racial profiling. Not stop n frisk. I dont know if anyone else is aware but King Bloomburg also banned large soft drinks, also gave edict that any women giving birth at a city hospital may not use commercial formula, but must breast feed.
I agree...if there was no probable cause to initiate the contact/stop then its no good. If it is based on race its no good. My job as a criminal interdiction officer meant I hunted bad folks, and they come in all colors, shapes, and sizes. So to effectively do the job I had to do it proper and by the law. I think the NYPD has for the most part good officers. I do however, think they have some leadership issues that starts from "his dishonor the mayor" and works its way down.
 
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The blacks & Hispanics problem COMMIT 87% of the crime.
 

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The other half of the impact is: deterrence. It's hard to say what the impact is, in terms of how many criminals just felt the heat was too heavy so that they went elsewhere or ratcheted down their criminality.

NY CLU's summary, 2002-2012: Stop-and-Frisk Data | New York Civil Liberties Union (NYCLU) - American Civil Liberties Union of New York State

N.Y. CPL. LAW § 140.50: Temporary questioning of persons in public places; search for weapons.

1. In addition to the authority provided by this article for making an arrest without a warrant, a police officer may stop a person in a public place located within the geographical area of such officer's employment when he reasonably suspects that such person is committing, has committed or is about to commit either (a) a felony or (b) a misdemeanor defined in the penal law, and may demand of him his name, address and an explanation of his conduct.
That is nothing but grey area for citizens.
 

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The blacks & Hispanics problem COMMIT 87% of the crime.
Be calm Spuk... It's only the internet... Be calm.

My friend... I've heard it said.. "There are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics." This statistic like everything else coming out NYC these are greatly skewed. For this statistic to be true the entire population of blacks and hispanics would have to be criminals. IMO The Bloomberg administration is skewing the stats to justify their actions.

87% of all crime is commited by Blacks and hispanics...Hmmm 87% of what crime? do these numbers include madicade frauad? Identity thefts? Bank fraud?, securities fraud? terrorist attempts?... How many pension systems have been ruined by young black and hispanics?.... how many people's life savings and retierment savings have been stolen by young blacks and hispanics?

Lets for argument sake say the statistic is correct. What is a crime in NY? A midemeanor or a felony is a crime. Walking around with a bag of pot in ones pocket is a V-I-O-L-A-T-I-O-N. Not a crime unless it is offered for sale, or in some way exposed to public view. So The NYPD has about 32,000 sworn officers. Some of them are assigned to crime prevention and suppression units like the street crime unit, the neighborhood stabilization units, anti crime units, street narcotics enforcement units, boro task forces, Pct conditions units... so in the big picture there are a whole lot of cops running around addressing crime. And where do you think the NYPD parks these units on a daily basis? Yep... in the black and hispanic neighborhoods for the most part. Now getting back to what is and what aint a crime... Every crime is reported to the NYPD on a form UF61. (now computer generated) Now with all these crime related officers doing their best to generate positive stats for themself, and the unit are out doing their thing. Discovering crimes that otherwise wouldnt exist, making 61's that otherwise wouldnt exist. So of course most of the 61's are from the minority communities. The crime will always be greatest where the bulk of the police are. Getting back to the pot in the pocket. If during a SQF an officer frisks a person of any background and feels the lump in the pocket, then orders the person to empty his or her pocket, and the person complies... the pot is open to public view... VIOLA!!! the violation becomes a misdemeanor, and a crime... The person is arrested, and carted off to jail, and given a fine that boosts the general fund of the City, and can pay for private detectives to harass gun dealers in other states...

Sorry for the rant...
 

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A while back there were about 35000 NYC police officers. Say half of them are admin or any other way as to not by 'patrolling' so some 17,500 officers stopped 533,000 which is about 30 per officer in 2012. I can walk down main street here in Reno on a week end and find four or five per hour that are suspicious.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Wow,
Gassmitty, while 50k may have been ticketed or arrested it still leaves half a million people unnecessarily harassed by police. That s not acceptable no matter how many arrests were made and doesn't do a whole lot of good for public/LEO relations either.

Bullet, 90% of that 87% that were stopped were let go b/c they weren't doing anything - where in the world did you get that figure from, cause it sure wasn't from what I posted.

Spuk, I agree with calling bull on Bullet, and I'm not supporting his assertion at all, but your assertion that the entire pop would have to be criminals is incorrect given how many criminals are repeat offenders. Also, your logic about where cops are assigned is backwards. Street cops are placed where the most crime happens, is not that they just witness the most crime because they are already there. That's like saying if cops were suddenly scheduled to shift most of their patrols to upper and middle class neighborhoods there would be a sudden spike in criminal activity that a street cop would be able to witness. I don't think anyone here would buy that. And yes, I'm choosing my words carefully b/c the underlying assumption here is that we're talking about street crime.
 
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