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Discussion Starter #1
I hope this is the right place :)

Many gun owners fear that Ohio's open carry requirements in a car are going to get someone killed one day. Just last week, another incident played out that demonstrates just how dangerous the mindset of "man with a gun equals criminal" could be for law abiding gun owners.

Recently, a concealed handgun license holder was pulled over in Oregon, Ohio (near Toledo) after leaving a gas station. He was ordered out of his vehicle by police conducting a "felony traffic stop", eventually had to crawl out of his window (his doors were locked and he was ordered to keep his hands in sight, rendering it impossible to unlock them), and was ordered to the ground while being held at gunpoint. His crime? Carrying a gun lawfully.
Read the rest here

Isn't that just disgusting?!
 

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Hopefully Ohio will eventually correct their carry laws now that they have seen that granting RKBA & Concealed Carry did not cause blood to run like rivers in the streets...like the Ohio newspapers had "predicted" ~ Unreal.
 

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Hopefully the NRA will help out too. Seems the PD needs to be informed of and reeducated on CCW.
 

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Legislative reform was never more needed - and from what I gather, the interpretation of the CCW law is open to judgement on the day - on an individual basis!!

Never was anything more bizarre or absurd, than the open view deal in vehicle! :frown:
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Heh, my favorite part, is that the city, if you read the city code he was charged under, you come to realise, that possession of a firearm, licensed or not, is illegal in that city except for in your home, or on the range mostly... (Apparently, they don't care WHAT the state laws, state constitution, or Federal Constitution say... :blink:

(a) No person, in and about the streets, alleys, public places of the City, or at any
place other than the residence or fixed place of buisiness of such person, or while on a
suitable firing range or while being used for lawful hunting, or while unloaded at a public
firearms display, show or exhibition shall be in posession of, carry, or have on or about
his person, any pistol, revolver, rigle, shorgun or any weapon by whatever name known,
which is designed to expel a projectile or projectiles by the action of expanding gasses, or
any bowie knife, dirk, blackjack, bullyclub, brass knuckles, or any other weapon capable of
inflicting bodily harm. (Ord. 3-1974. Passed 1-14-74.)

(b) Whoever violates this section id guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree.
 

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The person who is facing the charges is a user on GT. He posted his story there. It seems there is more to the story than we are hearing.
 

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I thought that State law always trumped local law & that Fed law trumped State law. I'm confused as to how that local law could be enforced. :confused:
 

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Might be a pre-emption issue where the local law was passed before the state pre-emption law was passed and maybe the local law was grandfathered. WI has their pre-emption like that. Laws after a certain date can't be more restrictive than state law, but local laws passed before the pre-emption still hold the weight of law.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Dunno what GT is, but, the police reports I've seen related to this, and court documents so far, seem to suggest, the story's pretty accurate...
 

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This is pure harassment. The Supreme Court of Ohio has already said that open carry is legal and a person can not be charged with a crime for obeying the law.
 

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We were trying to get some much needed improvements to the carry laws through the legislature before summer break, but of course it didn't happen. Hopefully when they come back in the fall HB 347(?) will actually make it through the legislature and get to the governors desk. Of course, he has threatened to veto it, but that's another story and another battle.

I'm no lawyer, but it's my understanding that the "plain sight" rule has never been actually defined in any legal way. Therefore it is up to whatever officer you are dealing with. Most cops are pretty cool of course, but you get those jerks sometimes. (Cops are people after all.) Part of the law working its way through the system is to get rid of the plain sight part of the law, it causes you to handle your pistol too much. Also, part of it was state law preemption so you don't have to keep track of every city/jurisdiction law as you travel around. Right now cities can impose further restrictions - such as magazine size and/or number of rounds in the mag.

I also believe that Toledo is very un-gun friendly. GT is probably Glock Talk forum.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Yeah, GT is glocktalk, dan told me he just got a Glock 23, so, I imagine he's been posting there...

In good news, the sheriff's dept decided they had to give Dan his CHL back... http://ohioccw.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3616&Itemid=83

Of course, they had to be prodded by his atty to do it....

But hey, they're still doing the right thing... even if they had to be called out on it before they did....
 

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TonyW said:
I also believe that Toledo is very un-gun friendly. GT is probably Glock Talk forum.
City of Toledo is very un-friendly. You need a special permit from the city if you reside in the city.
 

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Yeah, sorry. GT is Glocktalk.com. It was the first gun forum I joined and hang out there quite often. I am here, on GT, and 1911forum.
 

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Man, that sucks. I travel to Ohio all the time. My CCL license is not valid there but it is in all of the other states I travel through. Before we hit the border, I have to stop, unload, and store the pistol in a locked case in the back just like Federal law states. I just hope I don't run into some over-zealous police officer like that. "Excuse me sir, but what is in that locked case back there?" I'm planning to get a FLA non-res so I can carry in Ohio. The laws are just so dang confusing up there right now. I hope the legislature gets its act together and corrects the laws.
 

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"Sadly, the County Sheriff's office has suspended Sayers' CHL, and his firearms have been confiscated by the police department. "

My step dad had 3 of his guns stolen from our house one time all at once when our house was robbed, later that night the cops pulled over the guy and got the guns, but only returned 2 guns, saying that OH we only recovered two guns, the third gun that was missing, just so happened to be a brand new stainless steel S&W .44 magnum. Yeah, okay, it just simply disapperaed into thin air.
 

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A better link is here, where you can directly download the WMV format vid: http://ohioccwforums.org/files

Much, much faster than the other link.

If this is the guy and that video is the legit. police video/audio, then here's my take:
  • Civilian vs. Police duty: Police have a right to gauge a situation and get the facts, and to meaningfully protect and serve; civilians have a duty to notify, to cooperate.
  • Belligerence: The officer's impression of this man's belligerence is highly accurate. The man was, indeed yelling and screaming, refusing to be cooperative. ("WTF are you guys doing? Would you not point the muzzle at me? ...") Frankly, remove the comments regarding CCW/CHL and this guy appears little different from any crackhead jagoff on those emergency/cop television shows. In advance of the LEO's having the facts about the driver and the situation, it's hard to see how the LEO's should have reacted any differently.
  • Doors won't open? Either one? Not likely. Combined with the yelling/screaming, these claims elevate a mundane stop and standard procedure to a heightened situation ... one created by this man's abberant behavior.
  • A time and a place: There's a time for everything. Continued stream-of-consciousness speech from the guy in direct response to requests for information/cooperation was the wrong thing at the wrong time. Speaks to judgment (or, lack of it).
  • Psychological eval: This guy isn't stable under pressure. It isn't a leap to think he'd overreact in an assault/street situation. IMO, he definitely did in this situation, with the police. A CHL candidate? Perhaps not, given this new video clip of his "stressfire" handling.

In a nutshell: The guy could have handled it better. No, he doesn't appear to have broken any laws. The officers certainly should have run the plates, determined he's a CCW/CHL holder, known his background ... in advance of taking him into custody. Probably did, but unkn. A couple choice questions from the officers instead of initiating with AR-15 calibre demands might have gone a long, long way to not "tightening" the situation to a head. Though, we cannot know what the driver did or did not speak while seated in his car, as the audio is nonexistent during the early stages during the "takedown".

Here's to hoping I never, ever respond in a similar fashion to any LEO, if stopped. And here's to hoping no LEO deems it necessary to jump right to AR-15 level tactics in advance of finding out basic facts (unkn in this case).

EDIT: What I've long planned to do in a similar situation:
  • Follow the police direction, allowing the LEO's to get comfortable and in control.
  • Notify the LEO's of my name, concealed license to carry, the fact that I'm currently armed w/ gun / spare mags. Repeat, if not clear or it doesn't appear to be getting through.
  • Allow the situation to flow, knowing there will come a time very soon when Q&A can begin in earnest.
  • When Q&A does begin, provide the relevant details and answer all questions directly and simply. The reality is: It's my car, my wallet, my CHL, my firearm and I've not actually committed a violent crime. Probably is a ~99% likelihood this will be seen in the end, though perhaps not on my exact, desired, immediate time schedule ... which is not my call to make, handcuffed and facing an AR-15 toting LEO.
  • Realize: The time for histrionics is later.
  • Realize: The time for claims & blames is later.
  • Realize: Any form of resistance is going to be met harshly, likely with force, possibly with subsequent retribution (ie, mishandling at the station). Why push a situation over the brink purposely.
  • Realize: The time for demands (ie, calling my attorney) is later.
  • Realize and remind myself: I'm not actually the criminal. I won't be going to prison. So, everything can be worked out once the risk of immediate violence is over and after the situation has concluded. Includes writing up a simple timeline of events, facts and impressions, contacting my attorney, etc.

Now, the above assumes a lot. But, there aren't many alternatives. Think it through. No way will even a fearful, vengeful LEO having a bad day fail to gain control over the situation. Worst-case, just such an LEO having just such a bad time will be the one at my "takedown" and any resistance will be met accordingly. Should the worst indeed occur, that I were to be arrested for a capital crime and actually mishandled, it's important to realize that the "rights" I would be read are also a strict warning: anything I say/do can and would be used against me, as appropriate. The time for "forcible" resistance is via my attorney, later.

Parts do appear to have been edited/erased out. That's bad. Someone's going to be severely reprimanded, likely, if that gets traced. It's direct manipulation of evidence, out in "the wild". So, we can't know for certain what was said/done during those apparently-edited time periods.


- Michael
 

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Looks to me like there was plenty of blame to go around.

If you watch that carefully, you can tell parts have been edited out.
Later on the audio just blanks out for a few seconds here and there.

It looks to me as if the guy should never have been charged. Unless of course a bad attitude is illegal in OH. If he had clammed up from the get go, and started demanding an attorney he would have been better off.
Don't get me wrong, I can see why he was upset, but the side of the road is not the place to argue your case. At best it will mean you will be there longer. At worst, it means the officers will look for and possibly fabricate a reason to arrest you just to cover their own rear ends.

Having said that, I have a healthy respect for the police. My father was a cop, however he was the first to admit that the proffesion had it's share of dishonest people just like any other.
 
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