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Ohio Pizza beating (What would you have done?)

Pizza beating vid link

What would you all have done?? Would you have presented?

~A
 

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AP,
my first reaction is to say with all the chest pounding and strutting that "I would save cell boy's behind by physically confronting Kong." Yeah, and he stomps me to a shapless wad. In all honesty, I will be dialing 911 and moving to the door and stating to the op that there is an attempted murder in progress loudly enough for fatboy to hear me and hopefully break off his attack. If that doesnt do it, I MAY expend a little Fox on his eyes and pie hole, followed by a quick shoe shine as I exit the door, and try to render aid to the (hopefully) escaping victim. What I am not gonna do is draw down on this guy.
In the link I hope I can post, I will relay my more complete thoughts about intervening w DEADLY FORCE ON BEHALF OF A THIRD PARTY not known to me. Please understand my post is in response to those who would call anyone not drawing a gun a 'sheeple' or coward or that by not drawing you should not have a permit. So, there may be a hint of venom in my response, BUT that is to the previous posters in that forum, not you guys.....

Yeah, its all about being a good samaritin behind your keyboard. Till you're there, you dont know how you will react to such a violent, sudden, viscous attack. If you've never been witness to or the recipient of such an assault, you may freeze. If you dont know cell boy, or if he is not part of your family, and you intervene with deadly force, you are really sucking around for a court date. Even if the law in your state permits interceding on a third party's behalf, and even if you believe this guy was in jeopardy of being killed (and he was), and you dust fatboy with your sporty forty, you can expect to appear before da judge. You had no dog in this fight (again, assuming you are no relation to cell boy), yet you chose to become involved. Even if you are found not guilty of murder/manslaughter, how much did it cost you and your family for the lawyer that saved yer behind? And when the family of the rehab'd ex con sues you civilly for the wrongful death of the family's bread winner, how much is that gonna cost, even if you win? And what if you lose? How much then? From all that time off work to appear in court and meet with your lawyer, and bank folks to mortgage you house to pay your lawyer, do you still have a job?
And lets just say you draw down on bigboy, and he turns on you and since you've seen what he can do, you shoot, and he dont stop like he should according to the movies? And now, you are wishing for a glass of water to wash down that customized pistola that Kong is now force feeding you. Now your wife and kids will do without 'cause you wanted to be a cop.
Or, a shot goes errant, and now the mom coming in the door with the baby in her arms catches that round? or the baby? oooh, is that a criminal AND civil suit I feel coming on?
All for a guy you dont know and to feed your machismo. IF you want to be a sheep dog ---be one--get a badge. If cell boy wasnt living in a world where 'it cant happen to me', he would be packing and would bail his own ass out of this. I choose to go armed, so can he. I'm not losing everything for a dude who chose to go naked.
Those of us who have chosen to go as armed CITIZENS, have not taken an oath to use arms to protect the general public. Read your state statutes. Your right to carry a deadly weapon is to protect you and yours. The third party stuff gets real dicey when the lawyers get involved. So no, I will not hang my head in shame if I chose to vacate the premisis, go home and hug my wife, help my 8 year old with her homework and my 3 year old color his pictures, rather than a) be dead from an ass whippin' I could have avoided, b) down at the station house trying to explain why I was shooting a guy for beating someone I dont know.
That all being said, a little Fox oc and rubbin' tha boot might be just what largeboy needs. And you guys are right, killin is what he really needs. But till he attacks me, I cant do it.
 

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No.

Gotta have a program to tell the who the players are, and I had no program.

911, witness and wait.
 

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good to hear from you, KC. I was hoping you'd drop by for this one. Yours is always a voice of reason and experience.
Thanks,

Dan
 

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That sorta illustrates the point that one that carries a permit and a gun should also carry pepper spray or other non-lethal means of taking the fight out of someone. A shot of OC followed by a solid thump with an ASP baton would probably put the big guy on the ground without much resistance since he was so focused on the other guy. My CCW instructor drilled it into us over and over and over to not get involved as a third party. I suspect I might anyway and regret it later. Because of the consequences jdsumner mentioned I hope I don't. My life is worth more to me than his.... :rolleyes:
 

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Hey, gents,
IF you chose to get involved, and you are dealing some serious oc/asp to buttercup, DO NOT FORGET TO LOCATE hunnybunny, she may be just as dangerous and if you get too focused on kong, she is gonna hurt you. That is IF you willfully get involved.

Dan
 

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jdsumner said:
Hey, gents,
IF you chose to get involved, and you are dealing some serious oc/asp to buttercup, DO NOT FORGET TO LOCATE hunnybunny, she may be just as dangerous and if you get too focused on kong, she is gonna hurt you. That is IF you willfully get involved.

Dan
If I OC'd "buttercup" and gave him a tap, "hunnybunny" wouldn't see anything but my backside getting myself outta there. I would call 911 from somewhere else. I would suggest that the "buttwhoopee" have the same plan....
 

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When I watch the vid, it appears to me at least, that the reason cell boy cant escape is hunnybunny is in the doorway. It aint clear on camera, but cell boy tries to get out the door and yeah, kong has got him and trying to pull him back, but cb cant get out. I bet she was blocking the door. Maybe also to keep an eye out for 5 oh.

Dan
 

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Well, I just can't stand and watch someone just beat the crap outta someone else half their size. No I won't draw down, but I would start with some choice verbalizing to at least give the other guy an chance for escape. It appears he might have been sucker-punched and with getting a first blow from a dude that big has got to knock you silly. My intent would be calculated as well. Yell at him first, if he turns on me, this ole fart still knows how to kick a field goal, first to the groin then to a knee. Ever kick-start a motorcycle? Same action will do wonders to a shin. I didn't mention OC/Pepperspray cause I typically don't carry on me....just in my truck.
 

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I would call PD, then yell to em Pd have been called then see what happens from there. Most BG's will flee rather than confront someone face to face. I would find a defensive position first if possible.
 

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I remember seeing this on FOX I think. I would not have presented but I think I would have kicked the SOB as hard as I could in the outer thigh. You do that in the right manner and you can drop somebody to the deck in shock. Especially if you're wearing boots! The attacker is a VERY big dude, and obviously agitated, he can take more punishment than you can believe. Take more and give more. But there's plenty that can be done even without a firearm and that old saw about the bigger they are, the harder they fall is pretty true, you just have to use enough force to topple a giant redwood than a little sapling! GAWD I really HATE it when a bully beats up somebody smaller than they are just 'cause they can or they think they can.
 

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jdsumner: "Till you're there, you dont know how you will react to such a violent, sudden, viscous attack. If you've never been witness to or the recipient of such an assault, you may freeze."

The problem, jd is that I have seen much worse attacks as a bouncer in a nightclub (when I got out of the army years ago) and as a teacher in a fairly dangerous inner city high school. In school, I don't mix in, because most are gang related and it would be B-A-D for a teacher to be seen taking sides in a turf war.

I would in the case of a sexual assault or an attack on another teacher, but I warned the school administration long ago that if I mix into something like that, I refuse to be hurt and if that takes some of the Aikido training or some of the rougher stuff I learned in the army then so be it. I have defended myself from students in the past, but was fortunate enough to not have to break bones or indeed leave any marks....But I have never suffered from "freeze."

The administratrion has always been most supportive in my position to not wade into fight situations.....I just call security and wait for the cavalry.....
 

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Ex,
I dont see a problem w you having seen worse. And I never said YOU would freeze. I used to work the clubs myself. And I have seen people freeze. What I had a problem with was the super macho posters at another site who immediately stated they would respond with a handgun. MOST of us have not seen such an attack and are not conditioned to respond. YOU are. NO problem.
The problem as I see it, is, when you enter a pistol into this scenario, or even involve yourself other than making the cell phone call, you open a whole new legal/civil world as this is a 3rd party situaiton. You will have a much easier time in court with an asp, oc, or hand to hand. That is, IF you chose to step in, and IF that stuff stops kong. IF it dont, and he lays hands on you, and now you must shoot to survive, you are back at square one legally and civilly because YOU escalated the fight in which you were not legally involved. You are now what a lawyer calls a test case. And again, all this for a cat you dont know. And I dig everyone's willingness to help their fellow man, but, you have chosen to go into the world with tools to help you survive this encounter, so can he.
And I dont doubt you ability to lay the kick down, but, if it doesnt drop him and he turns on you, then....back to square one.
Again, my earlier post was not to call anyone a coward, or to flame anyone on this site. It was a response to another site, but, it had my thoughts on the subject. I still think loudly talking to the 911 op and moving towards the door (so I can haul ass if kong gets pissed I'm on the phone, or just decides he wants 2 cell phones) may give the victim a running chance and keeps me out of trouble.
Ex, are you gonna be headed into Tampa soon?

Dan
 

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I'm gonna post this here, as well as at the CCW BOOKS ETC... forum. If you live in sunny FLA, get the book "FLORIDA FIREARMS LAW, USE & OWNERSHIP" by Jon H. Gutmacher, Esq.
It will help the Florida ccw's answere these type questions from the point of a pro self defense lawyer who's been there.

Dan
 

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You are of course, Dan, absolutely correct in ways I never considered! I never thought of the possibility that Kong might not drop from the kick and if he turns on me and I must shoot to survive, I have now involved myself in a fight in which I was not legally involved. But I think, that in acting initially in a nonlethal manner in defense of another, I would enter a deadly force scenario at THAT level, rather than the original contact between Kong and victim. But indeed it would be a test case. Still in all even knowing that, I think I would still act. Know why? 'Cause when I was a little kid I was the target and victim of bigger Bully's who at one point nearly killed me. Ever had busted ribs from a beating that took place in the sixth grade? So, yup, I'd intervene. I think that if my thigh kick didn't initiate shock, I'd drop a bit lower and go for the kneecap.

However, you are also correct that the vic has the right and indeed the duty to learn to protect himself and his family so that others don't have to jump in to defend him. I wonder if he will now? I also wonder if a TASER might have put Kong on his back?

My best friend of over 35 years lives in St. Pete but I seldom get over there. He's always coming here, to our home town where we went to high school together. I'm even teaching his older sister to shoot, lol. He is now dating an old flame from high school, so the circle continues. You ever get to Miami? Love to have lunch or invite you to our IDPA club matches.
 

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Yeah, I dig the being bullied thing. In grade and middle school, and in the 9th grade, I was the only white (can I say that?) kid on the bus that went thru the 'crak capitol' of the world - Wimauma. So yeah, I would also try to help our hapless victim, but with diversionary tactics-cell phone call that Kong could hear. Maybe, just maybe a little 'hot sauce and shoe shine', but I dunno. I've got a wife and 2 kids, every decision I make will affect them, maybe for the rest of thier lives. And my life could be very short if dude gets his mits on me. I got no shame in admitting I'm outclassed by that guy. Bro, I hope you didnt take my statement about your kick not working to mean you dont know how to kick. Your training obviously means you do. But, my pops works the jail at Orient Road in Ybor City, and there are cats in there that after having been thru the system are so muscled up and trained to take pain, that its unreal what it takes to put one down. Pops can tell stories of guys withstanding oc foam, and beatings that should kill most men. I just meant that if your kick was slightly off, he's coming to you and you now are innit to winnit.
Have you got Gutmacher's book? Should be in any gunny shop out there.
I have never been to Miami. Do I gotta wear a shoulder rig, Wayferers, and smoke Camels?

Dan
 

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Discussion Starter #17
The one reason why I have many LEO friends who prefer to do Felony traffic stops than domestic calls.

On a side note, JD, great post up above. Very well illustrated and I like the comment KC brought up as well not knowing exactly what transpired. There was a similar situation that occurred up in Chicago a few years back where a white and black guy got into it, the white guy was smaller than the black guy and they were both in similar attire. Several people saw a fight going on where the black guy was clearly winning, however what they did not know was the Black gent was an Off Duty FBI agent who had just been mugged by the wite guy. All the "good samaritans" pounced on the black guy.

Great posts and this clearly enumerates another reason why I love coming back here.

~A

jdsumner said:
Hey, gents,
IF you chose to get involved, and you are dealing some serious oc/asp to buttercup, DO NOT FORGET TO LOCATE hunnybunny, she may be just as dangerous and if you get too focused on kong, she is gonna hurt you. That is IF you willfully get involved.

Dan
 

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This attack sickens me everytime I've seen the tape-and I've seen it repeatedly, because it happened only a few miles from where I live- so we are continually barraged with it on the local news. My first thought is, how could one draw on this fool in a pizza shop filled with bystanders and expect the outcome to be anything but a disaster? I truly feel for the victim (even though he obviously didn't use good judgement by running his mouth in such a potentially volatile environment), but I must admit, unless Gorilla Monsoon (my apologies to the real Gorilla Monsoon :) ) is coming after me or one of my own, I believe the most logical/ intellegent thing to have done would have been to grab the most important weapon available to you in a situation such as this-your cell phone- and call 911. Let trained LEO's deal with this idiot and his woman. After all, LEO's are trained professionals in difusing situations such as this! As stated earlier, one never knows what surprise hunnybunny may have had in her possession or in the vehicle outside, so why risk not only your life, but the lives of many others while trying to be a hero? By the way, Gorilla Monsoon just received 4 years for his part in this attack, while "hunnybunny", is now crying the blues over some alleged mis-interpretation of a plea-bargain deal she struck which may still leave her facing felony charges as well. Now being presented to the public as an apologetic mother of FIVE children, my first thought is if she is so concerned with the welfare of her children, why was she in a downtown pizza shop at 2:30 AM instead of at home with her kids to begin with? She's a scumbag, that's why. Ok, I'm getting off of my soapbox now...
 

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Gotta chime in again! I too was taught the "levels" of force and how one can escalate to the next, with deadly force being the last resort. There is a huge difference between a couple guys dukin it out, and when one opponent either knocks the other out, or gives up, typically the victor will stop with the physical force. The line gets crossed when a victor continues to beat a "at this point helpless" victim. I'm sure you've all read/seen on news about people getting beat to "death". It happens, and it isn't that hard to do....just keep on beating. As a "good guy" I am dutibound by common decency to intervene in this situation. As I said earlier, I would start with verbal intervention, that failing, then physical is gonna happen. If your lucky enough, or prepared, this is the point to use pepper spray on the bad guy. That failing or you don't have the spray, then better start getting physical. There is also a point in the physical confrontation, that, seeing that you're getting your a-- whipped, you can try a retreat. Obviously before you get yourself in the same cornered position as the previous guy. Failing that, if and only if, you fear your life is truly threatened (from beating) then you present your weapon and defend your life. I would hope in this case, that one, the victim has been able to make getaway as now the big guy is focused on me. Second, if I'm able to getaway myself, then based on what I saw in the clip, there aren't anymore folks this BG is mad at, so things probably settle down. Bottom line is that you may have saved a person's life.
 

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I used to be a Parole Officer and so I know about cons and their training drills and their uncanny ability to absorb pain. Heck my first Sensei was a corrections officer in the Miami Dade County lockup. The first thing he told me about that phenomenon is that yup those gorillas can take huge amounts of punishment as long as they can see it coming even for an instant they can brace themselves and just soak it all up. But if they never see it until it hits then the nerves take over and there is no time to react. It makes a huge difference. It's kind of like a principle of Aikido that you move your opponent along in one direction but vary the attitude of his movement to maintain control until you ABRUPTLY reverse his movement by exerting ki and thus concentrate his own energy to flatten him. He never has a chance to "get set."
 
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