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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
"A secret the Army doesn't want you to know about..."

kidding aside, here's the scenario:

You're at a gathering and someone is brandishing a weapon at you or has already commenced his/her attack. All immediate avenues of retreat are (for the moment) out of the question. You draw to deter/draw to actively engage your assailant. When you draw/shoot, his/her friends or strangers attempt to grab you/assault you/take possession of your firearm. Your new assailants are all unarmed (unless you count car keys and high heels as weapons, the heels part has happened to me once).

What happens next? Unarmed combatives/weapon retention techniques or more cases of lead poisoning?

better to ask now than find out for real...

(note: draw to deter = draw and say a verbal command ie "back off!" whereas draw and shoot = draw and start firing immediately)

EDIT: misidentification has been averted by saying something along the lines of "ok, seriously, calm down, let's be reasonable here" to brandishing attacker (attempt to de-escalate has already been attempted) or "oh crap" when being charged)
 

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I would never draw to deter......

but if something happened that caused my firearm to be out and shooting I would not stop firing until there was no longer a threat. So If people are running at me trying to attack and disarm me..well then that is a threat.:comeandgetsome:
 

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When you draw/shoot, his/her friends or strangers attempt to grab you/assault you/take possession of your firearm. Your new assailants are all unarmed...
How do you know that these people are on his side, or other bystanders who are not simply also taking action against "a second shooter" meaning you? Before you get misidentified as part of the original threat, you need to assess the situation to ensure that you are known to be trying to stop the initial assault.
 

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Never draw to deter, draw only if you feel your life is in danger.

As to the large group of "unarmed" people coming at you. Sorry I think I would consider myself still in danger. Just because you don't see a weapon doesn't mean there isn't one. Remember a mob is more dangerous than 1 person. Anyone who is attempting to disarm me is a danger and will be dealt with as such.
 

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How do you know that these people are on his side, or other bystanders who are not simply also taking action against "a second shooter" meaning you? Before you get misidentified as part of the original threat, you need to assess the situation to ensure that you are known to be trying to stop the initial assault.


you should probably have most of that figured out BEFORE you pull the firearm and start shooting. Meaning you should already know whats going to happen after you take down the first attacker...retreat,engage other targets,etc. If you pulled the gun,you probably already have all the threats identified. Well you should have anyway.
 

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Turn around and shear the sheep. Let nothing movable stand in your way.
 

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Sorry, but this is where the term "Fog of War" would apply greatly. You have mulitple threats of both lethal and nonlethal, and almost no time to tell the differance. In that kind of situation you are going to have a mix of sheep rushing you out of panic to get away from the original threat, sheepdogs thinking you are a secondary threat, and wolves that see you as a threat.

Only think I can say is Pray you shoot the BG, and the GG realize you are not a threat.
This is a nightmare for me, because in the first minute of this kind of situation a lot of mistakes are going to happen for the simple reason BG do not have flashing neon signs tell you who's the BG, and GG can't tell you are a GG too.
 

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Grabbing at the gun would be interpreted as a threat by me.
Yup.

Two things are clearly illustrated, contrived though it is: the importance of having sufficient distance between me and the threat (or potential threat); and the nature of "junkyard dog" fights, in which one or more of the combatants can change sides and quickly become an ugly problem.

Anyone actively attacking/engaging as a threat is going to be treated as one, irrespective of whether that person was an apparent onlooker just a moment ago. If you want to contribute to the mob's attack and direct the mob's power on me, then you're going to be seen as a mob member at that moment. Life's really simple, in that regard.
 

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Sheep don't attack they run cower and wet themselves
 

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Turn around and shear the sheep. Let nothing movable stand in your way.
I love it. There's clearly no doubt in Ram Rod's mind what he'll do here, and I'm certain that he won't hesitate. I think it's important to 'pre-decide' what course of action that you'll take in various situations. You certainly wont have the time to ponder when it happens.
 

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Turn around and shear the sheep. Let nothing movable stand in your way.
If they are sheep they'll be leaving. Would your actions still be defensible?

Who's a good guy? Who's a bad guy? What about innocent bystanders? Anyone grabbing for your gun would be a threat but are they the local CC hero trying to save the day because they believe you are the bad guy? Maybe it's time to cut and run if no one else is armed. How'd you get in this mess in the 1st place?
 

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...
You draw to deter/....
Don't! If it justifies self-defense, or the defense of other innocence people, you draw to shooting.

...his/her friends or strangers attempt to grab you/assault you/take possession of your firearm. Your new assailants are all unarmed....
Study after study shows that that doesn't happen.

OTOH TerriLi's "Fog of War" might happen w/ armed friends of the shooter and/or another DC carrier also independently acting in SD. In either case the old "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" comes in to effect.

BTW -- I was focused on

...has already commenced his/her attack....
If just

...brandishing a weapon....
And you and yours can cut and run do it, as others have said.
 

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If they are sheep they'll be leaving. Would your actions still be defensible?

Who's a good guy? Who's a bad guy? What about innocent bystanders? Anyone grabbing for your gun would be a threat but are they the local CC hero trying to save the day because they believe you are the bad guy? Maybe it's time to cut and run if no one else is armed. How'd you get in this mess in the 1st place?
Good points. I think your SA will have to kick in and account for these details. I'm by no means endorsing a "kill 'em all" methodology to self defense. What's described here is a flat-out bad situation. 'Shearing sheep' can include non-lethal contact. My point is that a certain 'course of action' (not details) need to be pre-determined to some extent. For example, anybody who forcibly tries to disarm me is simply going to have a bad day. It's just cooked into my DNA that my relflex reaction is going to be extremely violent. Getting out of there should be the primary objective, supported by defensive tactics. Reflecting on how'd you get yourself in that mess while doing so would not be a good idea.

Respectfully,

WHEC
 

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If you have ever been without ear protection in a room when a weapon is freed you know you and every one else will be near deaf for a good while. Confusion will rule for a while, and then fear that they could be the next to be shot.

Sheep that attack a pulled weapon bare handed within seconds of the shoots being fired are not sheep, and if no way out for you then you will have to fight your way out. No unarmed person in their right mind will charge a leveled firearm in the hands of willing and commented shooter who has just proven his ability.

I dough the true sheep will ever attack unless you are standing in the only exit and they just want out in that case get out of the exit and let them go.
 

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My interpretation of this scenario. You don't draw at all. Get the hell out of there. This is the kind of thing that makes people anti gun and the Brady Bunch would eat it up. If you are going to start shooting innocent people that think they are doing the right thing by trying to take your gun thinking you are the gunman then in that situation is you are better off letting the bad guy shoot the people. If you start popping of innocents then that makes you a bad guy. Sorry but that is the way I see it.
 
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