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Discussion Starter #1
OK nothing original here - just a slant on old material really.

I carry the SIG now and with 15+1 +P feel it is a good option for me. I am shooting it better and better and know what I can do with two or three quick shots.

But - consider an extreme ( ignore the absurdity factor!) - if (IF) you carried instead something huge like a short barrel .454, hot loaded .44 even - and we assume that you are able to control this for one quick and well placed shot (follow-ups being by default slow) - might it actually be more effective, than multiple well placed shots from something like my SIG? Or your 1911.

As I said this is only an old subject but with a slight slant... that way perhaps you won't kick me!

So - would that one big shot - say a foot ton energy - translate into better effect. Let's forget about over penetration - just whether the ''grand slam'' might be all that's needed. I am also not trying to get into the ramifications of old faithfulls like ''energy dump'', ''one shot stop'' etc - simply going for a straight opinion.

I tend to think of pretty massive damage and shock - but might it actually be a put-down? - assume if you will a shot absolute COM. I don't BTW intend to change my carry but you might know now how I love fishing :biggrin:
 

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Hmmmm sticky question.

Assuming shot placement was always the same, Is it better to shoot someone once with a 240 grain .44 Magnum catridge or three times with a .380 seems to be the question.

I submit yes if you could exhibit the exact same level of accuracy with some very high powered caliber as you do with a lower powered caliber, you should go with the more powerful catridge.

Your motivation should be to stop your attacker. If you can use a better tool, use a better tool.

I don't believe in one shot stopping either. I think it's a myth as far as handguns are concerned. But I do believe that minimizing the number of rounds fired is both ethical and prudent. I mean you do want to shock that CNS ASAP right?

However I live in the real world where magnum rounds are difficult to control. I settle for the light, easy to shoot catridges and resign myself to the fact I'd better plan on shooting twice or more.

Then again I'm something of a weirdo when it comes to capacity in the first place. For most people it's the main criteria, or at least a major consideration, but as long as it's at least five or six I've never really cared how many rounds it holds as long as it shoots well. It's not that I don't care, it's just not as important to me.

One thing does occur to me however. There are some huge, huge people out there. I'm not sure even 2 or 3 service catridge bullets would stop them. Of course this isn't the norm but we are speculating.
 

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Chris

Heckfire...You are on the ball with some Hot Smokin' Thread Topics these days!
OK...EXACT Center Of Mass? ~
My very best guess (since I am not the county coroner) would be that a perfectly placed fast multiple of three with good penetration would be equally as effective as one Hot Heavy .44 Cannon Ball & would certainly "shake a body up a bit" ~ I would say that you are very well protected with your 3 hits COM.
Your "Perfect Triad" might actually be much more effective.

Ask Me Why...I'll answer tomorrow.
Right now...I'm jumping off.
Cripes it's 11 PM already & I still have Real Work to get finished tonight. :biggrin:
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Hehe - real work!! QK - I have some of that too - but hey - procrastination is my second name!

Euc - what I was thinking re ''big stuff'' was - and re your ''magnum rounds are difficult to control." .... the first (and only) shot from a bigger piece will not be any harder (IMO) to fire. This is the big point. It is only recovery from such a beast that would create delays and maybe too inaccuracy. Thus my cogitating on the usefulness of the one mega hit - and forget any more. Well fast follows anyways.

This is as I said pure fishing - but I do so relish thoughts from others - every so often someone comes up with some aspect I never even thought of and then - I am enlightened. That's why this and gun forums in general can be so useful - it is all part of learning, even at my age!!

(but you have to endure my ramblings tho for this to occur!)
 

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Well when you put it that way...

To be honest if I knew all of my potential attackers would be solo attackers, and never indoors, I'd carry a monster round.

If we're hitting exact COM every time, the accuracy is a given. I still stick with the high powered catridge vs. the three lesser catridges.

But I must ask you how big of a gap are we talking about here? Are we talking three rounds of 32 ACP vs. 1 round of 480 Ruger or are we talking 3 rounds of .45 ACP vs. 1 round of .44 Magnum?

Because in the former I take the lone catridge, but in the latter I take the triad.
 

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I think when Chris eats Hot Wings it causes him to ponder a bit much. :tongue:

Gee what a topic?

I believe in shooting until the threat is no more.

I have seen small folks hyped on 'scripted meds, like the 13 y/o girl weighing about 90 #'s sopping wet in a Private Hosptial when I did a rotation...she blew by two BIG security guards, took three to stop her ( get her down).

Also seen the 350# guy on Crack take on 5 Big LEOs

What I did with new students is use Jim H's method. Fold a sheet of typing paper in half, then fold again. [quartered] Five yds and five rds. Preferred from concealment, low ready was used as well. At the sound of the buzzer draw and fire 5 rds.

We did this with a variery of platforms and calibers, the typing paper and times revealed what platform and caliber that shooter shot best for them.

WE also had some older folks, say with arthritis, they may have once been able to shoot a .357, the times and paper told them/ us going to .38spl was actually better.

Some even "hesitated" on the first shot anticipating recoil. Granted a training problem - then again a real physical one due to arthritis.

I have some older folks I know that cannot / do not CCW. At home they only firearm they can use effectively is a .410 shotgun with slugs. Yes they practice best can, shooting and reloading. The comfort of only one rd is NOT as comforting as the ability to fire more rds quickly to stop that threat - or multiple threats.

Physical limits, still comforting to at least be able to use "something" and always taking preventative measure, and hoping it never is needed.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I think when Chris eats Hot Wings it causes him to ponder a bit much.
Hey Steve - it's back to last Thursday since Bonnie and I had wings!!!

Sure - as ever - something better than nothing re a weapon.

I recall - tho darned if I can find the pic - a chest injury from a .44 mag or bigger - on a corpse - it was frankly ''devastating''. Like as not - it went intercostal so no bone frag or impedance to the bullet but heck - whatever it was expanded and - well, macerated would suit fine!!! Could have been 4th/5th intercostal and so a heart or aorta impact but - was that ever a sight.

No CNS but - I'd imagine a pretty rapid depression of BP before actual bleed-out. Bit like accelerated anaphylactic shock!

This is why I am playing with the one mega hit thinking.

Anyways Steve - you know I am ''imaginative'' - you've seen it before LOL!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Euc - forget 32 acp - I am only considering 9mm and up. No disrespect to 32 or even .380 come to that.
 

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Okay if we're only talking about service calibers on up, it's probably the triad unless it's a truly ridiculous case like a triad of 115 grain FMJ 9mm catridges versus .500 S&W Magnum.

If I didn't know the calibers involved and someone said either shoot 3 times with a weaker caliber or once with a more powerful caliber, I'd err on the side of shooting more because the goal is to stop.

But if I knew how extreme the gap was, I might be inclined to go with the one big shot. It just seems to me that one sudden substantially more massive wound has a better chance of stopping someone than a series of smaller wounds, but the difference has to be very great indeed.

Of course this is just meant as a theoretical excercise, so I think it's safe to assume in the real world we take other factors into consideration which essentially relegate this debate to a status of non importance.

But boy it sure is fun to ponder it.

See I keep thinking about a conversation I had recently that I was reminded o f in that bear attack thread. Someone remarked that if he ever got attacked by a bear, he'd want the highest possible capacity pistol so he could shoot the bear as many times as possible. I countered that I'd much rather have a nice, big, heavy revolver that fired the most powerful round possible, probably 454. Neither one of us could convince the other he was wrong.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Euc - chances are (i hope like heck) we will never have to find out!
 

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Chris as you know I grew up reading Ruark. Ruark just "knew" that leopard.he shot was down - it was not. He had broken the rule to Always shoot again.

You know, for the others that don't I used to work in the main OR. I was also allowed to view some files and photos.

I was there the night a guy came in and stuck a model 66 in his mouth with full .357 load and pulled the trigger. He did not die, he did lose some teeth, some sinuses, ...and did get a free pass to the Psych Hosptial.

One guy came in with multiple .45 and 9mm wounds - from toes to head..he lived.

The .44spl to the Femoral artery victim died , we did the harvest for organs. The .22 lr victim was shot from ~ 7 feet. Bullet struck the "sword" [ oh phooey, the midst of where ribs connect...*something* sword] anyway a fragment of this bone took out the SA Node, dead.

Hence the reason I don't get into Holy Grails for Firearms, platforms, calibers and such. I do believe in "Use Enough Gun" - I put a lot of value in shot placement.

Too many variables, in the blink of an eye one may to defend themselves and being the "firstest with the mostest" , and continuing until threat is stopped .

I'd like to think one big caliber would do so....then again assume nothing and take no chances.

FWIW - the worst "cut" I have seen that killed someone - was not a knife, instead a jagged beer bottle. Carotid artery. Again "placement" is the key.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Steve - indeed - as ever, assume nothing. Way to go. I still feel well ''comfortable'' with my 15+1!

As for busted beer bottle - man, that is potentially as or more lethal than a small very sharp blade. Carotid section = quick demise - that's for sure. Ouch!

So many ways to die!!
 

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Chris,
No doubt that I have been dubbed "traditional" or "old school" - heck I even refer to myself as such.

Granted I have stayed with the same platforms and calibers since I was a pup. Yes I have some more "modern".

I have always believed in the basics, learning the basics correctly.

I have nothing against new technology - be it firearms, ammo, training, or whatever.

Just the way I see it , we keep learning the basics over and over , we get the platform that fits "us" for the task and keep the mindset and brain working. We hope we never have to use these.

What elephants I have had....I never turned down any luck that happened as well. Goodness knows Murphy is always around to mess things up.

One reads about the "hog legs" of the Old West. Most folks could not afford a Colt. Many 'killings" were with smaller calibers of lesser known makes at ranges the folks could hit what aimed at [ shot placment] .

I'll take advantage of our friendship here.

Your R9 is akin to the small .36 cal revos of old. Conceals and you place shots fast and accurate.

For another a J Frame Snub is what works for them.

Heck even that old '28 Det Spl I have , and have been shooting will do that for me. Took it out and eradicated some rabid critters just to see - to know what I could do and how fast.

Great topic .
 

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The Det Special has to be an ol' friend to many - bet lots of old cops say it rings true!

Despite the over worked phrase - ''whatever works'' has its place.

I am off to bed Steve in this EDT timezone - catch ya soon dude.
 

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there is no magic chambering...adn no magic bullet...its been shown that there just isnt enough power in a handgun round. Multiple well placed shots are needed. I really cant see a BG knowing the difference between being shot with a .32 or a .45..he just knows he's been hit, if he even knows that in the moment.

I agree in shoot til there is no more threat/threats. Carry the biggest caliber you shoot well and train often with it.
 

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If the premise is one perfectly placed shot, it seem logical that it doesn't really matter what caliber is used. We know that .22's kill people with one shot all the time (ask RFK). But since the moment of death and the end of physical motor response aren't the same, it seems the purpose of multiple shots is to inflict massive physical shock on the BG until he loses the physical ability to inflict injury on us. If we fire one great shot into a BG (with a .44 or .22) we don't step back and admire our shot ("Damn, that was a heck of a shot"!!)- we keep jacking lead until the threat is no more.

Therefore, in answer to your hypothetical, give me any good handgun caliber and multiple shots versus one, BIG BANG all-or-nothing shot anyday!!

IMHO, of course!
 

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"When you're up the creek, use Mozambique."

Sorry, guys, I don't even trust 'big holes.' There are numerous reports of people simply full of adrenaline that took over a dozen hits and kept on going.

Hitting some major boiler room part of the physiology is the only guarantee.

Under duress, your aim might not be what you'd like in a perfect world. The Mozambique drill is a classic because it works.

It ain't rocket science. Even Euc should be able to hit a grapefruit sitting atop a volley ball. Practice, practice, practice, tactical reload, practice.
 

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The controllablitly would be issue of course but a 300 grain or heavier round from say a 454 casull would reall pack and punch and if the guy was doped up would probley do the trick but if they were i would want to be able to get 3-4 off ... Course that doesnt mean that those 3 or 4 will stop him either
 

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The Tourist said:
It ain't rocket science. Even Euc should be able to hit a grapefruit sitting atop a volley ball. Practice, practice, practice, tactical reload, practice.
You say that... and I can hit a cantaloupe perched on a watermelon... don't remember how far away I was though, pretty young at the time. I remember I could barely handle the recoil of a .357 without dropping it and the grips seemed so big.

Cantaloupe everywhere. Yummy.

Well actually yucky. It was rotten fruit.
 

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P95Carry said:
But - consider an extreme ( ignore the absurdity factor!) - if (IF) you carried instead something huge like a short barrel .454, hot loaded .44 even - and we assume that you are able to control this for one quick and well placed shot (follow-ups being by default slow) - might it actually be more effective, than multiple well placed shots from something like my SIG? Or your 1911.
The one place I could really see the Big Bores would be in the role of back-up, when you couldn't carry a long gun. A .44 300gr Barnes copper solid will do worlds more damage to a fellow like the recent TX courthouse shooter than a dozen core-mass .45/9mm's. Blunt trauma alone is likely to cause a pneumothorax, and a frontal hit could kill by pericardial tamponade, body armor or no. But. How often do you forsee encountering something like that? Perhaps a back-up mag of sub-gun +P+ ball would be a better option? I'm always reminded of an officer shooting I heard about in Wichita: Routine traffic stop. The perp exits, firing. The first officer out of the car is hit, and goes down (he survived). The second officer fires 26 times for 13 hits (slide-lock twice on his 5906). The DA asked why he felt the need to reload, and keep shooting. His response, "He was still moving. Our policy is to shoot until the target is no longer a threat....." Works for me..... :wink:
 

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Assuming equal shot placement, and no overpenetration, and assuming the kinds of expansion we see in gel, then your three 9mm JHP's are going to damage twice as much tissue as one shot from a .44, .45 or .454. Unless your large caliber shot reaches rifle velocities, it will only cause permanent damage to what it contacts. The large caliber shot may hit harder, but it won't damage more tissue than your three shots (assuming your three shots don't go through the same hole). I'd rather do twice as much damage or more, than trust my shot placement on a moving target under stress to make a one-shot stop.
 
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