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Anybody got experience on online courses and training about shooting and self defense? I´m not talking about courses you take before applying for CCW permit, but rather more advanced, perhaps more tactics oriented stuff? Also, I don´t mean shooting DVDs like the Art of the Pistol, etc but rather actual courses that are structured as lectures and perhaps have progressive curriculums.

Something like:
- Concealed carry masters course (https://concealedcarrymasterscourse.com)
- Personal Defense Network courses (https://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/products/personal-defense-classes/page/2/)
- Mike Seeklander online training (http://blog.shooting-performance.com/new-interactive-online-defensive-handgun-training-program/)

Do you find this kind of instruction more beneficial than regular instructional DVD´s? Can you recommend these, or other similar courses?
 

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Second link is all Rob Pincus courses. I met and trained with Pincus for 1/2 a day at the 1" to 100 yrds" event in Laughlin, Nevada back around 07-08. He's a marketer of the highest order, and didn't offer much in the way of revelations on shooting. Did pick up on one of his drills that's useful in practice, so I feel if one can glean even 1 practice drill that increases skills levels it may be worth the expense of the online course/s.

The first one is pure marketing BS IMO.

Have no knowledge of seaklander, no comment.

In the grander scheme, I wouldn't be interested in paying for any on line courses from anyone. Hands on, where the trainer can make remedials when necessary
 

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Sir, many of the online courses are going to be focused on effective defensive gun use in the U.S. I'm not aware of laws in your country, but those laws certainly will affect how you carry, where you carry, and implications for employing your weapon(s) is various situations.

There is probably some value to learning from online courses developed from a U.S. perspective, but if there are local trainers and lawyers who can speak with authority about use of lethal force in your country that's probably the best option. Having the confidence to know when and how you can use lethal force with less fear of the hellish legal battles after the fact will go a long way to improving your ability if it's needed.
 

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Sir, many of the online courses are going to be focused on effective defensive gun use in the U.S.
Yes, I´m aware of that. I have read books and watched DVDs about guns and self defense that are made for American market for several decades, and that is always a concern fow me. However, the fundamentals are more or less the same, and I believe that I can spot the differences. I usually skip the law section, anyway.

However, what I´m interested is the technical shooting skills, and tactics when it cames to CCW especially as I have not studied CCW issues for very long.
 

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Second link is all Rob Pincus courses.
...

The first one is pure marketing BS IMO.

Have no knowledge of seaklander, no comment.
Yes, I have a lots of material from Pincus and several books from Seeklander. I like them both, Seeklender is more conventional but he presents very detailed traninig programs in his books. Pincus is more out of the box thinker, in my opinion. Somewhat like post-Paladin Press Gabe Suarez, or Ralph Mroz.

I agree about the marketing of the CCW Masters Course, but I have learned that BS marketing is not a guarantee of a BS product. However, I recently found their companion manual at the Internet and although the majority of the course material seems to be on the DVDs, the instruction seems detailed. The course seems to be geared mostly towards inexperienced shooters, though.

In the grander scheme, I wouldn't be interested in paying for any on line courses from anyone. Hands on, where the trainer can make remedials when necessary
Of course, hands on training is better. But I believe that books, DVDs and online courses can supplement hands on instruction.
 

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I look at on line and dvd courses/instructional materials with firearms the same way I look at those venues for defensive edged weapons training. Not nearly as effective as hands on training with guidance from instructors in real time. I bought a few knife defense vids, thought they held some value too, until I started training with an emeritus in blade defense, then it became quote clear the vids would never get me anywhere near the level of skills no matter how often I watched or practiced from them as just 4 hours with live training afforded.

The vids still held value, but not on the streets where it will count. Took 3 years of training with the emeritus [ about 50 hours ] before I was proficient enough to work the first years skills without thinking about them thus having those autonomic responses ingrained. After 9 years with him, I was capable of imparting the first 2 years knowledge he afforded, to others [ with hundreds of hours of diligent practice ].
 

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I shot in competition and there were then, as now, books telling one how to shoot in NRA Bullseye competitions. Then, as is probably the case now, trying to substitute anything for actually shooting a training regime has very limited value. I could not have ever gotten beyond the lowest score in the group had I only read a book. There is no substitute for the real thing.

Now “gaming” how you would respond in certain scenarios? Yes, there might be value in videos, just as there is in dry fire, laser shooting systems, even just sitting quietly and thinking through them has value. But actual shooting? No...the real thing has no substitute or shortcut.
@YJT. You’re a police officer, are you not? Would you have felt adequately prepared for street work if they had just handed you a DVD and said, “Watch it three times, and you graduate and you’re ready for whatever you will ever have to face in your community” ?

I wouldn’t.
 
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I remember watching a fifteen minute bayonet fighting training film at Parris Island. We received a training manual with pictures and text. Then we watched a film of the the techniques. A couple days later we went for hands on technique training followed by going through the training course stabbing straw dummies, etc. We did that over and over again. I can say this with certainty. The manual and the video were useless. The hands on training prepared us. The manual nor the video did not tell you things like the following.

Your feet are too apart. Sholulder wide dummy.
Don’t use the parry to just block. Learn this. Use it to push the bayonet away so you can make a clean butt stroke.
Throw your whole body behind the thrust. You just stabbed straw. People are much harder than straw. Think live.

Now that might seem corny to some but it how they trained and still train Marines. There is no substitute for an instructor. And do not sign up with an instructor who has never had to face a possible gun fight. The instructor that has had to will understand what adrenaline does to and for you.
 

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The missing ingredient in the books, dvds, and online training programs is feedback. Without that, you are depending on your own understanding as to whether you are doing something right or not. Not entirely useless, of course, but why pay for something and get maybe 25% of it?
 

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My belief is that one needs the actual hands on training with the physical feedback and instructor's corrections to acquire the basic skill and conditioning. After that, the student will have a base of physical experience against which to evaluate any new or different concepts. Even then, those new ideas will need to be worked on a real range in order to assimilate them. Generally (meaning there are exceptions) the more real world experience one has, the easier it is to assimilate the purely cerebral.

For instance, you can read or see a video telling you not to crowd your cover but it's in the shooting that the lesson hits home and exceptions are noted.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
@YJT. You’re a police officer, are you not? Would you have felt adequately prepared for street work if they had just handed you a DVD and said, “Watch it three times, and you graduate and you’re ready for whatever you will ever have to face in your community” ?

I wouldn’t.
I wouldn´t, either, However, nobody suggested that one should just watch the films and that´s it. I don´t understand, where that came from. Just watching the DVDs would be akin to attending a training class and just watching the instructor performing and not training yourself.

It is true that hands-on instruction is better than watching films and/or reading books and then training by yourself. But if you get only say 25% benefit from DVDs, it´s still better than 0%. And it´s true that the less experiece you have, the more important it is to have someone to correct mistakes etc.
 

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why pay for something and get maybe 25% of it?
Of course, attending training classes is the best option, but DVDs have some advantages over classes, like:
- at the price of a training class (and other expenses like traveling), you can probably buy several DVDs
- you can watch the DVDs over and over again
- you can watch them when it fits your schedule
- training in several relatively short sessions is more effective than training in intensive, two-day course for example
- by watching DVDs you can get training from instructors whose trainig classes you cannot participate for some reason (distance, cost, limited to certain audiences, etc)

I think that the best option would be to first attend a traning class, and then refreshing your memory by watching DVDs form the same instructor that covers the same issues that in the training class.
 

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I've watched a few how-to shooting videos, which were almost always promotional for whatever training the instructor offered in-person.

One gun guy whose videos I do enjoy watching is Dave Spaulding, simply because of their entertainment value. Dave is a very engaging, articulate and funny guy.
 
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I've watched a few how-to shooting videos, which were almost always promotional for whatever training the instructor offered in-person.

One gun guy whose videos I do enjoy watching is Dave Spaulding, simply because of their entertainment value. Dave is a very engaging, articulate and funny guy. He is also a top-notch firearms trainer.
 

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Of course, attending training classes is the best option, but DVDs have some advantages over classes, like:
- at the price of a training class (and other expenses like traveling), you can probably buy several DVDs
- you can watch the DVDs over and over again
- you can watch them when it fits your schedule
- training in several relatively short sessions is more effective than training in intensive, two-day course for example
- by watching DVDs you can get training from instructors whose trainig classes you cannot participate for some reason (distance, cost, limited to certain audiences, etc)

I think that the best option would be to first attend a traning class, and then refreshing your memory by watching DVDs form the same instructor that covers the same issues that in the training class.
BINGO!!!!!!!! Then one has a base to work from, and refresh memory when practicing the hands on training.

I watched a pala-soot knife video a couple dozen times, by following along in slow motion, I thought I understood the skill set adequately enough. That is until I trained the first year with Kames Keating in Little Rock, Ar. I learned in 30 minutes on that skill with Keating that I wasted my money buying the dvd, and wasted my time practicing that skill.

From that time forward, I spend thousands to attend Keatings courses in travel expenses, lodging, food and the courses themselves, including the 6 days on the snake river at the Riddle of Steel event. Now, after 9 years of training with Jim, if I watch his vids, they are refreshers not training dvd's, per se.
 

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I wouldn´t, either, However, nobody suggested that one should just watch the films and that´s it. I don´t understand, where that came from. Just watching the DVDs would be akin to attending a training class and just watching the instructor performing and not training yourself.

It is true that hands-on instruction is better than watching films and/or reading books and then training by yourself. But if you get only say 25% benefit from DVDs, it´s still better than 0%. And it´s true that the less experiece you have, the more important it is to have someone to correct mistakes etc.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Sorry. I wasn't implying that a video course alone would be enough. I suppose what I wrote sounded like that.

Forgetting that and moving on.

My only issue with printed or video courses is that IF the person watching / reading is not very experienced, they will not know whether they are getting good instruction or some of the "look at my new untested theory" garbage some instructors who specialize in non-hands-on instruction trot out from time to time. I won't name names, but over the years I have seen some of the most outlandish things come out of so-called instructor's mouths in some of those so-called "courses of instruction."

My opinion is that IF I was inexperienced and got only 25% benefit that I didn't really understand, but was asked to emulate and I thought it was good and proper, only then to discover in a good hands-on class that what I thought was a good 25% was really something I was going to have to un-learn, I've just wasted time and money that would have been better spent on hands-on training. I hope that long, long sentence makes sense.

Un-learning a bad habit is harder than learning a good habit. And my experience is that I have seen some really, really bad habits in those things over the years.

I think @AzQkr said the essence of what I'm struggling to say much better than I. ^^^^ :35:
 

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I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Sorry. I wasn't implying that a video course alone would be enough. I suppose what I wrote sounded like that.

Forgetting that and moving on.

My only issue with printed or video courses is that IF the person watching / reading is not very experienced, they will not know whether they are getting good instruction or some of the "look at my new untested theory" garbage some instructors who specialize in non-hands-on instruction trot out from time to time. I won't name names, but over the years I have seen some of the most outlandish things come out of so-called instructor's mouths in some of those so-called "courses of instruction."

My opinion is that IF I was inexperienced and got only 25% benefit that I didn't really understand, but was asked to emulate and I thought it was good and proper, only then to discover in a good hands-on class that what I thought was a good 25% was really something I was going to have to un-learn, I've just wasted time and money that would have been better spent on hands-on training. I hope that long, long sentence makes sense.

Un-learning a bad habit is harder than learning a good habit. And my experience is that I have seen some really, really bad habits in those things over the years.

I think @AzQkr said the essence of what I'm struggling to say much better than I. ^^^^ :35:
Have you ever tried watching yourself in a mirror to support what you learned in a DVD?
 

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Have you ever tried watching yourself in a mirror to support what you learned in a DVD?
Like shadow boxing? Tried practicing pala-soot in a mirror, without a partner that has the same skill set, it's doesn't improve diddly squat. Hence the courses taken with swapping partners often who are learning or have the skills being drilled then already.

My best increase in skills came through hands on with someone that was better than myself and thus forced me to their level over short periods of time. If the military, any military thought watching vids would save them 25% of their allotted time actually hands on, they'd have incorporated it long ago.

Simply put, if you don't put in the physical time of training, you have no understanding of how to overcome resistance, etc.

Here's a better example, from real world results as reported by students in Fla to me in the pistol course.

A guy who sponsored me into Fla for 3 years watched me train others. He got the bright idea he could train people in the same skills [ he never took the course so he didn't really "know" the skills having performed them himself. He offered a 1 day to locals, using my name as reference to gain favor with students who followed me on another site.

Two years into the monthly training there, I had two students walk up to me in my own course [ who had just trained with this guy in the same first 4 skills ] and wanted to talk privately. They reiterated they'd trained with him for a day and they learned more in the first hour in my course than they did all day in his.

They mentioned he didn't teach it the way I do either. I explained they should take that up with him, ask him where he got his training in the skills [ he had none ] and they wanted their money back. To report it on that site after training with me, and they weren't willing to do that, didn't want to cause problems.

The guy was contacted by these two guys after my course privately, and they wanted their money back, he'd not shown them, the proper way of the skills, had never trained in the skills himself and they threatened to report that on the site unless they got their money refunded. Guess what happened next?

He stopped offering courses of fire from my curriculum immediately, stopped posting on the site and hasn't been seen there since. These two guys in my course were under the impression they were good to go on the first 4 skills, and ONLY after getting in front of someone who had not just trained in them but used them on the street did they understand they got their money ripped off. But he had everyone convinced they were getting great value of funds spent.

Caveat Emptor, there's NO free lunch. You can put the time in actually training and KNOW what your skills are, or you can watch dvd's etc and think you know those skills. When it comes to the white elephant rearing it's ugly head, that's not the time to find out what you thought you knew would work, doesn't.

Hands on, remedial on the fly, ingraining proper skills development with resisting partners is not something you can replace watching dvd's. There's no short cuts to higher levels of skills development, and that 25% thats been thrown around here is just more prognostication.
 

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Have you ever tried watching yourself in a mirror to support what you learned in a DVD?
I watched "Saturday Night Fever" endlessly. The mirror trick worked great. Going to a disco and trying it always ended in disaster!

Proper decorum and forum rules prevent me relating what they called me.
 
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