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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey, this is also posted at the texaschl forum.

State Fair of Texas is not allowing open carry. Per 30.07, they may not legally do so since Fair Park is owned by the city. This makes it government property and provides legal protection against trespassing charges.

This thread is not a debate about whether or not it's a good idea to open carry there. This thread is about making sure those who do want to open carry there are not prohibited.

Please use this thread to post responses from State Fair of Texas, the Attorney General and ideas about how we can correct this situation.

Contact information for City of Dallas Fair Park Administration can be found here...
Dallas Parks, TX - Official Website

Contact information for State Fair of Texas can be found here...
Contact Us | State Fair of Texas
 

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KY has a similar law, in that open carry can not be banned on state property. When it comes to the state fairgrounds or the KFC Yum center in Louisville though, the group leasing the property can establish any rules against weapons they chose. That may be a loophole being used in Texas.

Keep up the fight.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Here's the response I just got from the city of Dallas administrator...

"Mr. Medlock
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I will need to get with them to see what exemption they feel that they meet and will be back in very soon Thanks again"

I just received this response from the State Fair. It doesn't provide any info about what athority allows them to prohibit open carry...

"Thank you for contacting the State Fair of Texas. Please review the following:

A person holding a valid Texas License to Carry a Handgun (LTC), or a valid concealed handgun license from a reciprocating state, is permitted to enter the Fair with his or her concealed handgun, provided that he or she thereafter fully complies with all applicable laws. LTC holders are responsible for knowing and complying with all applicable Texas laws. For example, under Texas Penal Code Section 46.035 a LTC holder is prohibited from carrying a concealed handgun (1) inside Cotton Bowl Stadium or on any other premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place, (2) on the premises of a business that derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, or (3) while intoxicated.
State Fair of Texas prohibits Fair attendees (including LTC holders) from openly carrying handguns while at the Fair. If an individual attempts to enter the Fair with an openly carried handgun, he or she will not be allowed to enter the Fair unless he or she conceals the handgun (if he or she has a valid LTC) or secures the handgun in his or her vehicle or at some offsite location. If an LTC holder enters the Fair with a concealed handgun and then begins to openly carry the handgun, he or she will be asked to either conceal the handgun or to leave the Fair.
NOTE: State Fair of Texas does not provide lockers for the storage or checking of weapons for LTC holders, so please plan your visit to the Fair accordingly. For example, if you plan to attend a game or event in the Cotton Bowl Stadium, please secure your weapon at home or in your vehicle prior to entering the fairgrounds.

Frequently Asked Questions | State Fair of Texas

Big Tex Team
BIGTEX.COM . P.O. BOX 150009, DALLAS, TEXAS 75315 . P: 214.565.9931 . F: 214.421.8710"
 

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Here's the response I just got from the city of Dallas administrator...

"Mr. Medlock
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I will need to get with them to see what exemption they feel that they meet and will be back in very soon Thanks again"

I just received this response from the State Fair. It doesn't provide any info about what athority allows them to prohibit open carry...

"Thank you for contacting the State Fair of Texas. Please review the following:

A person holding a valid Texas License to Carry a Handgun (LTC), or a valid concealed handgun license from a reciprocating state, is permitted to enter the Fair with his or her concealed handgun, provided that he or she thereafter fully complies with all applicable laws. LTC holders are responsible for knowing and complying with all applicable Texas laws. For example, under Texas Penal Code Section 46.035 a LTC holder is prohibited from carrying a concealed handgun (1) inside Cotton Bowl Stadium or on any other premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place, (2) on the premises of a business that derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, or (3) while intoxicated.
State Fair of Texas prohibits Fair attendees (including LTC holders) from openly carrying handguns while at the Fair. If an individual attempts to enter the Fair with an openly carried handgun, he or she will not be allowed to enter the Fair unless he or she conceals the handgun (if he or she has a valid LTC) or secures the handgun in his or her vehicle or at some offsite location. If an LTC holder enters the Fair with a concealed handgun and then begins to openly carry the handgun, he or she will be asked to either conceal the handgun or to leave the Fair.
NOTE: State Fair of Texas does not provide lockers for the storage or checking of weapons for LTC holders, so please plan your visit to the Fair accordingly. For example, if you plan to attend a game or event in the Cotton Bowl Stadium, please secure your weapon at home or in your vehicle prior to entering the fairgrounds.

Frequently Asked Questions | State Fair of Texas

Big Tex Team
BIGTEX.COM . P.O. BOX 150009, DALLAS, TEXAS 75315 . P: 214.565.9931 . F: 214.421.8710"

So, I'm confused now. Are they saying there's a sporting event going on there, or that they're getting 51% of their income from alcohol, or they don't really have a justifiable reason to prohibit open carry?
 

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Well maybe they consider Fair Day. Each day the Fair is open school districts around North Texas sponsor one day Fair day in which school buses are used to bus students like a field trip. So basically they allow you to conceal carry. They could really be a pain and push the Fair Day as a interscholastic event and ban all forms of carry.
 

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So are they actually posting it as 30.07 to put teeth in it, or are they just going to ask OC'ers to leave?
 

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Hey, this is also posted at the texaschl forum.

State Fair of Texas is not allowing open carry. Per 30.07, they may not legally do so since Fair Park is owned by the city. This makes it government property and provides legal protection against trespassing charges.

This thread is not a debate about whether or not it's a good idea to open carry there. This thread is about making sure those who do want to open carry there are not prohibited.

Please use this thread to post responses from State Fair of Texas, the Attorney General and ideas about how we can correct this situation.

Contact information for City of Dallas Fair Park Administration can be found here...
Dallas Parks, TX - Official Website

Contact information for State Fair of Texas can be found here...
Contact Us | State Fair of Texas
I suspect it is complicated to correct and no way anyone will be OCing there, at least not this year...lots of things I don't know. Is someone or group leasing the property from the city? Etc.


Good explanation (linked below)IMO, If the property is leased by a private entity. Be it non profit or not.

https://www.texascarry.org/index.php/in-the-news

To answer the question is quite easy. They are not prohibited from posting. It is not illegal for them to post 06/07 signs if an entity is leasing governmental property. There is simply no provision in law prohibiting them from doing so
Do the signs carry force of law?
This is now where it will get interesting.
And it does get interesting!

Now if a government entity is running the fair it is illegal for them to post on city property. But the fair will be long over before the AG even files suit to hold them accountable.
 

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So are they actually posting it as 30.07 to put teeth in it, or are they just going to ask OC'ers to leave?
According to the way I read it. If an officer or any government employee were to ask you to leave. They would be breaking the law.(illegal exclusion)It is not only complicated but screwed up.. IMO
 
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Too many laws are written by...lawyers.:blink:

And assuring that the laws are as nebulous & vague as humanly possible, keeps their private practices open! :biggrin2:
 
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Texas State Fair allows for concealed carry only. No Open carry. They do have that right as a business if they post State approved signs at the entrances. Tx State law states that no CC or OC is allowed on any premises where a school related sporting event occurs, or where a school sanctioned event of any kind is in place. That applies to State Fair grounds as well. You can carry concealed at the State Fair, but you cannot enter the Cotton Bowl or any building where a school sanctioned event is taking place with your concealed weapon...ie: The Ag building when school sanctioned livestock competition is occurring, etc.
Texas law is pretty straight forward on this subject and it's the choice of the State Fair to either allow or not allow either option.
The fact that they do allow CC is good, but they prefer not to have firearms in open sight. Easy enough to understand and I'm perfectly fine with that. There are so many DPD officers on duty at the State Fair at any given time and it's an all day process to attend the State Fair...honestly, I'm not so sure I'd want the extra weight of my EDC tugging at my hip all day anyway, but I might opt for a smaller rig shoulder holster due to the heat. And in 40 years of attending the Tx State Fair I've never seen or had an incident, altercation, issue, or any kind of encounter that would have needed a weapon of any kind to resolve, either on the Fair grounds or in the process of walking to or from my parked vehicle. In fact I've never seen, been around, been in, or even heard of anything happening at the State Fair...ever.
Considering it's a melting pot of people of all types, it's actually a pretty safe place. And with foot, ATV, towered, and horseback patrol from the DPD it's probably the most patrolled and guarded place in Dallas during fair season. And they sure don't need back up from me!
But I will exercise my right to carry and use my Null SMZ to conceal the PPK...The perfect package for the September Texas heat.
YMMV
 

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Respectfully, I don't make ANY of my carry decisions based on historical good-fortune in the locale. I've never needed my CCed handgun in church, yet it's under my choir robe...EVERY Sunday. :image035:
 

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Texas State Fair allows for concealed carry only. No Open carry. They do have that right as a business if they post State approved signs at the entrances. Tx State law states that no CC or OC is allowed on any premises where a sporting event occurs, or where a school sanctioned event of any kind is in place. That applies to State Fair grounds as well. You can carry concealed at the State Fair, but you cannot enter the Cotton Bowl or any building where a school sanctioned event is taking place with your concealed weapon...ie: The Ag building when school sanctioned livestock competition is occurring, etc.
Texas law is pretty straight forward on this subject and it's the choice of the State Fair to either allow or not allow either option.
The fact that they do allow CC is good, but they prefer not to have firearms in open sight. Easy enough to understand and I'm perfectly fine with that. There are so many DPD officers on duty at the State Fair at any given time and it's an all day process to attend the State Fair...honestly, I'm not so sure I'd want the extra weight of my EDC tugging at my hip all day anyway, but I might opt for a smaller rig shoulder holster due to the heat. And in 40 years of attending the Tx State Fair I've never seen or had an incident, altercation, issue, or any kind of encounter that would have needed a weapon of any kind to resolve, either on the Fair grounds or in the process of walking to or from my parked vehicle. In fact I've never seen, been around, been in, or even heard of anything happening at the State Fair...ever.
Considering it's a melting pot of people of all types, it's actually a pretty safe place. And with foot, ATV, towered, and horseback patrol from the DPD it's probably the most patrolled and guarded place in Dallas during fair season. And they sure don't need back up from me!
But I will exercise my right to carry and use my Null SMZ to conceal the PPK...The perfect package for the September Texas heat.
YMMV
Private entity leasing Government property yes, they can legally post. There is no law saying they can not. Question is?
On public property, do the signs have force of law?
BTW: can you quote the law that states no OC or CC where any sporting event occurs? Because I don't believe that to be true.

Specific sporting events yes.

46.035
(2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a handgun is used in the event
 

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At least CC is allowed at the Texas State Fair. Louisiana has had OC forever and "Shall" issue CC since 1984. Yet neither type of carry is allowed at the Louisiana State Fair or even on the fairgrounds when the State Fair is not there.

That having been said, it is a rare year that there is not at least one shooting at the LA State Fair by gang members. Seldom are the shooters ever caught, even with the high amount of police presence during State Fair hours. I suppose only the bad guys get to carry there. But the thugs always carry concealed.
 
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Ah yes the Texas State Fair!

For the record, this is the place I was mugged the second time.
I was cutting between two building to catch up with some friends when I cross paths with two men.
One White, one black. The white guy walks up to me and asks for a light for his cigarette.
(I don't smoke BTY)
Sorry Dude, don't smoke!
He keeps walking up into my personal space until he is less than 2 feet from me.
Next thing I know, I see a flash of his right arm and feel something hard up against my head with great force.
I go down to the ground in a total daze.
I shake my head and realize I have a 38 snub nose in my face.
The two men rifle through my pockets and remove a grand total of $8.27 cents.

My head is spinning and ears are ringing as they stand up and run away.

The Great Texas State Fair. Yep!
You can bet I won't be walking in there without a handgun.
It will be concealed with my hand on it most of the time most likely.

Those two were in my face so fast and I was so naive.
Not anymore.

Better yet, I think I'll stay home and read about the thieves robbing someone else.


And they did get away, because by the time I got a Policeman to listen to my story they are long gone and the Cops don't even bother to look at the crime scene.
 

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my error..that should have said if it's related to a school event...ie; high school football game...even it it's off campus at Jerry World...edited the orignal post for clarity on that...thanks for catching.
racetracks are the only specific sporting event listed in the penal code as far as I know.

BTW: can you quote the law that states no OC or CC where any sporting event occurs? Because I don't believe that to be true.

Specific sporting events yes.

46.035
(2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a handgun is used in the event[/QUOTE]
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
Hey, guys. Here's a quick summary of the issue for easier reading. Yes, quite a few LTC holders will be open carrying at the fair this year.

The State Fair of Texas, a tax exempt nonprofit organization, is attempting to prohibit open carry as you can see here...

Frequently Asked Questions | State Fair of Texas
"State Fair of Texas prohibits Fair attendees (including LTC holders) from openly carrying handguns while at the Fair. If an individual attempts to enter the Fair with an openly carried handgun, he or she will not be allowed to enter the Fair unless he or she conceals the handgun (if he or she has a valid LTC) or secures the handgun in his or her vehicle or at some offsite location. If an LTC holder enters the Fair with a concealed handgun and then begins to openly carry the handgun, he or she will be asked to either conceal the handgun or to leave the Fair."

This is not enforceable pursuant to the new 30.07 penal code since the land, Fair Park, is owned by the city of Dallas and leased to the organization as you can see here...

PENAL CODE CHAPTER 30. BURGLARY AND CRIMINAL TRESPASS
"(e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder openly carries the handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035."

This exception is reinforced by Attorney General Ken Paxton's opinion published August 9, 2016 as you can see here...

https://texasattorneygeneral.gov/opinions/opinions/51paxton/op/2016/kp0108.pdf
"A court would likely conclude that a license holder who carries a handgun on property that is owned by a governmental entity but leased to a private entity and that is not a premises or other place from which the license holder is prohibited from carrying a handgun under sections 46.03 or 46.035 of the Penal Code is excepted from the offenses in subsections 30.06(a) and 30.07(a) of the Penal Code."

And finally, the State Fair of Texas' spokesperson herself, Karissa Condoianis, explained to a Star Telegram reporter why they are legally unable to prohibit open carry in an interview published January 12, 2016 as you can see here...

Stock Show will allow patrons to openly carry handguns ? with restrictions | The Star-Telegram
"“State Fair of Texas’ policy will be similar to our policy for Concealed Handgun License Holders,” State Fair spokeswoman Karissa Condoianis said in a statement. “The State Fair of Texas leases property owned by the City of Dallas and does not fall into any of the exception categories (amusement park, etc.) that would allow us to prohibit the carrying of handguns, so we will be allowing ‘open carry’ according to the Texas statutes."

Even if you have no desire to open carry, allowing the State Fair of Texas to violate our rights is a bad precedent to set.
 

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Hey, guys. Here's a quick summary of the issue for easier reading. Yes, quite a few LTC holders will be open carrying at the fair this year.

The State Fair of Texas, a tax exempt nonprofit organization, is attempting prohibiting open carry as you can see here...

Frequently Asked Questions | State Fair of Texas
"State Fair of Texas prohibits Fair attendees (including LTC holders) from openly carrying handguns while at the Fair. If an individual attempts to enter the Fair with an openly carried handgun, he or she will not be allowed to enter the Fair unless he or she conceals the handgun (if he or she has a valid LTC) or secures the handgun in his or her vehicle or at some offsite location. If an LTC holder enters the Fair with a concealed handgun and then begins to openly carry the handgun, he or she will be asked to either conceal the handgun or to leave the Fair."

This is not enforceable pursuant to the new 30.07 penal code since the land, Fair Park, is owned by the city of Dallas and leased to the organization as you can see here...

PENAL CODE CHAPTER 30. BURGLARY AND CRIMINAL TRESPASS
"(e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder openly carries the handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035."

This exception is reinforced by Attorney General Ken Paxton's opinion published August 9, 2016 as you can see here...

https://texasattorneygeneral.gov/opinions/opinions/51paxton/op/2016/kp0108.pdf
"A court would likely conclude that a license holder who carries a handgun on property that is owned by a governmental entity but leased to a private entity and that is not a premises or other place from which the license holder is prohibited from carrying a handgun under sections 46.03 or 46.035 of the Penal Code is excepted from the offenses in subsections 30.06(a) and 30.07(a) of the Penal Code."

And finally, the State Fair of Texas' spokesperson herself, Karissa Condoianis, explained to a Star Telegram reporter why they are legally unable to prohibit open carry in an interview published January 12, 2016 as you can see here...

Stock Show will allow patrons to openly carry handguns ? with restrictions | The Star-Telegram
"“State Fair of Texas’ policy will be similar to our policy for Concealed Handgun License Holders,” State Fair spokeswoman Karissa Condoianis said in a statement. “The State Fair of Texas leases property owned by the City of Dallas and does not fall into any of the exception categories (amusement park, etc.) that would allow us to prohibit the carrying of handguns, so we will be allowing ‘open carry’ according to the Texas statutes."

Even if you have no desire to open carry, allowing the State Fair of Texas to violate our rights is a bad precedent to set.
I see this as being exceptionally confusing, especially with the number of police and security persons on site, who will no doubt be of conflicting opinions due to being given conflicting guidelines.
 
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Sounds like the answer ... was a non-answer. Sounds like they plan to ask anyone to leave, but no legal authority to ban it..... probably why they are not mentioning any violation of law, etc.

We ran into a similar thing .... the Fall Festival Org..... tried to sell they could ban it because they were not part of the City but the City was paying them to put it together. City lost that argument, as they were ultimately who was having it put together. I carried to it, was standing in front of about 10-12 officers at the concert, and only 2 of them ever asked me anything .... and that was about what gun I had and discussed guns, and they said it was smart to be carrying.
 
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