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Discussion Starter #1
I saw this pic on another forum. I'm not sure if the poster was saying it was good or bad expansion, his posts are generally very cryptic, or abstract, and are not always easy to follow. I know what I think. And given the 14.1" of penetration thru gel, that is only reinforced.

So what say you?
Good expansion or bad?
Was the outcome worth the price of admission? Hornady Critical Defense is not a cheap date, but it sure has its following.

d5548a5fb4a92c23edc8498a482cb740.jpg
 

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I use that stuff in my 1911 only for carry gun not range. Too expensive.
Expansion looks normal to me.
I use it because that is what a lot of LEO's around here use, so if I have to shoot and they question my choice of ammo I can say I use the same stuff your cops use.
I am more concerned with shot placement than expansion
 

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I want that kind of expansion. Jacket and all of the mass still attached, petals folded back.

The reason is I would much rather a round go deep and hit important stuff; you may be shooting through the target’s extended arms, (because of a weapon aimed at you), the round has to traverse all that bone and flesh before it hits the thoracic cavity and vital organs, or occipital cavity. A LEO may be shooting through both sides of a vehicle’s panels to hit some one engaging them from behind it; or it may be a good center punch on a swole-up former convict with a thick layer of prison yard muscle.

If a round “blooms” out huge it is probably not going to get deep enough. If it fragments, same.

These are also from gel, which gives a baseline to measure results, but is nowhere near a human body or the way the round will react in it, so take the comparison with a grain of salt. Also, being able to get good hits under stress is far more important than ammo. You will also want to shoot a threat with those good hits as quickly as you can, until the threat is eliminated.

* Most of that is not meant for you PA, I know, you know. Using it as a teaching moment for those who don’t know. (Keeping myself sane in isolation by writing)
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I want that kind of expansion. Jacket and all of the mass still attached, petals folded back.

The reason is I would much rather a round go deep and hit important stuff; you may be shooting through the target’s extended arms, (because of a weapon aimed at you), the round has to traverse all that bone and flesh before it hits the thoracic cavity and vital organs, or occipital cavity. A LEO may be shooting through both sides of a vehicle’s panels to hit some one engaging them from behind it; or it may be a good center punch on a swole-up former convict with a thick layer of prison yard muscle.

If a round “blooms” out huge it is probably not going to get deep enough. If it fragments, same.

These are also from gel, which gives a baseline to measure results, but is nowhere near a human body or the way the round will react in it, so take the comparison with a grain of salt. Also, being able to get good hits under stress is far more important than ammo. You will also want to shoot a threat with those good hits as quickly as you can, until the threat is eliminated.

* Most of that is not meant for you PA, I know, you know. Using it as a teaching moment for those who don’t know. (Keeping myself sane in isolation by writing)

Good response.

Now my thoughts. Those bullets didn't expand worth squat.
What you have is basically the copper jacket peeled back and the lead doesn't go beyond the jacket. This bullet barely expanded 20%, or barely over 1/16" in this case.
But it sure looks pretty. Did the flowering petals slow it down though? Was the HP worth the 14" penetration through nothing but gel?

Some might remember my impromptu test.
Pork butt with thik plastic wrapping, bone shattered clogging the HP, three full jugs penetration afterwards and the bullet captured after that.
Slow at 740fps.
1.JPG

7.JPG

5.JPG

And again, but through nothing but jugs.
Three jugs gone through and stopped at the fourth. And something I just noticed today, it was tumbling.
But it appears to have expanded, but not by much. Like the bullets above.
2 4th jug.jpg

3a.jpg

Now this is the same caliber as the Lucky Gunner pic, but traveling much faster.
This is expansion. IMO.
expansion.jpg

But it was the third bullet that penetrated much more than the first two. The first two didn't even make it through three jugs with nothing else. Like my test. The third bullets was also higher velocity than the other two. Measurements given are the narrowest point.
BTW, This and the LG pic were 32's. The first pic 32 H&R mag and the last pic 327 Fed Mag.

So I guess the gist of this is, I would rather have a bullet that looked like the third bullet in the last pic.
BUT, at what cost? Shooting a bullet at close to 1400fps out of a snub?
I would rather shoot cast. You'll get the penetration and maybe a little flattening or deformity and they don't cost an arm and a leg.
Or be assured my JHP will clog and penetrate, lol.

I don't see the point of "minor" expansion if it isn't going to exceed the jacket peeling back and flattening against the sides.
I do see the point of significant expansion if it also penetrates. But I like controllable.

Just something I've been pondering.
Carry LSW's certainly isn't anything new.
And me not liking critical defense isn't anything new either, lol.
 

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I see what you are saying. But again, I am judging those knowing they went through gel, a solid bone strike would look different.

Also, more to your point: Gold Dots and HST’s in 124g or 147g for me; I don’t use that critical defense junk. Doesn’t the critical duty out perform it?
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Yeah, that's why I posted my test, a bone and real muscle hit. It yielded a clogged HP, but performed well... but then 45's don't need to expand :wink:
In a smaller HV caliber the Gold Dots do seem to perform better.
But I'm still thinking cast is the way to go. I'm just not seeing 20% expansion as real expansion.
 

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Caliber and expansion size? I don't see much expansion from that angle. Really a poor angle to see expansion. From the top, it looks decent and consistent.
 

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More jello tests please! I just love the jello tests!

Two combat tours in Vietnam followed by 24 years as a cop, all I can offer is a hit beats a miss, a hit in the vitals is better than a hit in the non-vitals, big holes are better than smaller holes, two holes tend to bleed out faster than one, and the only shot that really counts is the one that stops the fight.

But I'm not trying to sell millions of dollars worth of products to the public, and I'm not paid to produce professional-looking studies. All I do is survive, and so far that has worked out pretty well for me.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Caliber and expansion size? I don't see much expansion from that angle. Really a poor angle to see expansion. From the top, it looks decent and consistent.

It was the only pic offered, but I thought it was a perfect angle. You can see the top and the bullet's actual diameter.
If you had a top view all you would see is perfect petals and not see that they didn't punch out beyond the jacket.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
More jello tests please! I just love the jello tests!

Two combat tours in Vietnam followed by 24 years as a cop, all I can offer is a hit beats a miss, a hit in the vitals is better than a hit in the non-vitals, big holes are better than smaller holes, two holes tend to bleed out faster than one, and the only shot that really counts is the one that stops the fight.

But I'm not trying to sell millions of dollars worth of products to the public, and I'm not paid to produce professional-looking studies. All I do is survive, and so far that has worked out pretty well for me.

I've never been a fan of reading through credentials before an actual response, but it was a good response.
My feelings exactly.
 

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Yeah, that's why I posted my test, a bone and real muscle hit. It yielded a clogged HP, but performed well... but then 45's don't need to expand :wink:
In a smaller HV caliber the Gold Dots do seem to perform better.
But I'm still thinking cast is the way to go. I'm just not seeing 20% expansion as real expansion.
Think of it this way 20% expanded 9mm would be 10.8 mm! I don't see the down side. DR
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Think of it this way 20% expanded 9mm would be 10.8 mm! I don't see the down side. DR

The only downside would be if the expanded petals slowed it down enough so as not to penetrate sufficiently.
Other then that, you are good to go.
 

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