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Discussion Starter #1
Its a term we hear about guns fairly frequently but, what does that really mean?

Maybe I am weird, OK, so I am weird but, I ask myself why do I seem to default back to a snub nosed 38 revolver?
I have carried just about everything one could imagine (or close to it) so why not a Glock 19 or my Walther PPS?
They are not hard to conceal or uncomfortable to carry unless I am dressed in really light or snug fitting clothing.

I can only examine this from my own experience with firearms. When I think back about where I started with firearms and my journey with them my entire firearms experience has been about making sure the first shot counted.
That comes from hunting and that started with my first ever gun, a Ruger single six revolver. I did not come from a hunting family and nobody in my family owned guns of any kind so buying that gun was pure impulse while looking through a pawn shop.
I carried that gun for many,many years in the Hunter holster it came with and even into my career of working in the woods. I often brought home a Grouse or Rabbit while at work dispatched with that Ruger .22.

There were no second shots. If you didn't get them with one you didn't get them at all. I cocked that gun as it came out of the holster with my finger resting against the side of the trigger guard and finger on trigger before the gun leveled.
That was the way you shot if you wanted to eat game that day. No offhand cocking after you had two hands on the gun.

This all came back to mind as I recently started upland game bird hunting again after a few years on hiatus.
In Wyoming you have to have no more than three shells in your gun so I have a plug in my 870 so only two shells fit in the magazine. I don't hunt over a dog so my methods are different than most. I walk until birds go up and then I watch where they go and do a long stalk to try and get them up again but, closer to me.
I have rarely fired the third round when I get the birds up because by then they are farther away and usually at bad angles from me. I have occasionally fired at a late flyer but, my percentage of take on those are lousy because I have to make some awkward turn and/or re shoulder the gun.

The point I am trying to make is its critical how I am carrying my shotgun when birds go up and its critical how proficient I am at shouldering and pointing that gun to have success on that first shot. My percentages of success drop dramatically with that second or even third shot.
Its the same when I hunted big game. I have never needed the five shells my 30-06 holds. Everything is over long before I get to number three. When I first started hunting with my 30-30 I actually started to wear down the lead tips of shells from loading and unloading season after season because I only fired a round or two each year.

This has all influenced my POU for self defense as well. I lean heavily on a fast and accurate first shot more than sustained fighting capacity. I am in no way saying my reasoning is best just explaining where my POU is based.
For those that carry more gun as often as I carry less I salute your determination and resolve. I honestly do.

I just have not been able to draw and place an accurate shot as fast (within 10 yards at least) with any other type of handgun. I find a revolver quicker to draw and quicker to line up on target. No doubt that comes from so many years of one in hand. Yes, I suffer limited capacity and yes, I suffer long distance accuracy to get that speed of reaction and yes, truth be told I have to admit a certain level of carry comfort and even laziness probably factors into it but, the timer doesn't lie.
A few tenths of a second may or may not be relevant. Who can tell?
I still feel strongly that the first person hit is heavily disadvantaged in a fight and I still feel that the most probable scenario I might find myself in needing a gun will be bad breath distance and likely hands on. A scenerio where the revolver shines. Sure, anything can happen but, we are talking "most likely" here which is what I mainly use my training time and dollars on. I push my snub to 25 yards but, I do not use a lot of time or ammo on that skill. Could I be wrong? Sure I could.

My goal is to "influence" my attacker as quickly as possible to disengage from the attack and give me time to exit stage left. The best way for me to put it is from the video G-man posted a while back on revolvers.
I carry a "get out of trouble" gun not a "going into trouble gun".

Yes, we can run into the same maggots as cops but, I would argue the situations will likely be vastly different.
When I was a detention deputy everyone on the dept. ,patrol or detention, was issued a S&W 4506 that held 8+1 and we all carried two spare mags. 25 rounds always seemed like more than enough for a "going into trouble" gun.
Most of us carried a j frame type of gun off duty then. Why would people who have first hand experience with the worst of humanity daily walk around with j frames off duty?
I can tell you why. Different mission off duty than on, different "POU" if you will. Simple as that. A "getting out of trouble" gun.

Just my thoughts on where my POU comes from and why. I am not arguing one method of carry or the other as being "best".

Why do you carry what you do?
 

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I believe that bad guys frequently come in groups, 2 or even 3 at a time. In the confusion of a fight, with it's dynamic characteristics, I would rather have more rounds than less. Primary weapons are my Sig P229 or P365.
 

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I'd add to @G26Raven's comment, an attacker may be jacked-up on fentanyl and meth and may not react much to being shot, may need to be shot up to the point of being incapacitated by blood loss.
 

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I'd add to @G26Raven's comment, an attacker may be jacked-up on fentanyl and meth and may not react much to being shot, may need to be shot up to the point of being incapacitated by blood loss.
Yes, similar to that recent video of a police shooting, where the female officer tased a man and he still got up and stabbed her. I don't recall exactly how many shots the officers fired, but it was more than any revolver carries.
 

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As others have said, bad guys often travel in groups that alone is sufficient reason to carry more capacity than a wheel gun for me.

You may be right about most trouble being close up then again that shooter taken down in the chum with one shot.. that was not close. In class when the instructor pushes out the distance the frequent example given is the bad guy in the mall, Walmart, Safeway at the end of the aisle - you have one shot at 25 yards, can you take it and protect your family? I don’t train exclusively to shoot pistol at that range but I do train & I wouldn’t carry anything that wouldn’t be a good tool in that situation if it arose.


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I'd add to @G26Raven's comment, an attacker may be jacked-up on fentanyl and meth and may not react much to being shot, may need to be shot up to the point of being incapacitated by blood loss.
Incapacitated by blood loss takes time, better to shoot for the ocular cavity, turn the lights off instantly & stop the fight.

Many LEO have been injured or died at the hands of people they shot who later died from blood loss.


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Incapacitated by blood loss takes time, better to shoot for the ocular cavity, turn the lights off instantly & stop the fight.

Many LEO have been injured or died at the hands of people they shot who later died from blood loss.


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In a violent encounter, it might be tough enough getting COM shots well-placed, much less head shots.
 

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Not much has changed since handguns evolved beyond the single shot variety. Most encounters occur within 7 yards. The overwhelming majority occur within 3 yards. Why is this? Because opponents need to close to do their dirty work.

The j frame revolver excels in this role. Fast on the draw. Extreme reliability. A natural aid to instinctive shooting. When encounters go really south and hands on occurs or the defender gets taken to the ground nothing performs like a j frame. Nothing else will allow a defender to jam the barrel into an attackers rib cage and make hamburger.

You are not alone in your thoughts on philosophy of use forester58.
 

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My POU dictate my carry and method. Caliber and capacity have absolutely nothing to do with it.

I don’t pontificate on the numbers game when considering the most likely relevant scenarios in which the use of judicious deadly force may be needed, and I have no delusions of grandeur that multiple assailants will wait until it’s there turn before reacting to my use of said force. I doubt that they will wait until I’m done with #1 before #2 or even #3 decides to enter the fray. I highly doubt that the 2nd and possibly third wolf will wait and see how the first wolf fairs before baring their fangs. This is a naive and foolhardy way of thinking imo, and the probable outcome is not on my side regardless of bullets in the gun or caliber.

Additionally, regardless of ones philosophy of use, it’s important to choose a weapon that works for you and not against you to that end.
While a magnum revolver has the best power factor and terminal ballistics on paper and in medium, the recoil and muzzle blast may work against the need to engage multiples quickly and accurately; so the advantage is clearly negated.

While a full sized, powerful caliber belt carried gun can give one a “ secure feeling”,“ feelings” aren’t worth much when the rubber meets the road...especially when 10ths of seconds may be the difference and you are fumbling to defeat a layer or two of cover garment and you are already a couple of seconds behind.

So for me, speed in to action is the absolute number one criteria, which means ease of discreet accessibility.

I know what my numbers are from extensive practice under the artificial stimulus of a timer.....I can only hope that they would be close to that under real duress, but if I’m to be honest with myself, I know that is wishful thinking.

So for me, the reality of what is the fastest in to action decisively beats what makes me “ feel good” based on numbers on a paper, bullets in a magazine that I probably won’t have a chance of getting off in the real world, or what is my favorite gun to look at and punch holes with in paper.

The only thing I could say to anyone is do the numbers yourself.
 

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In stark contrast to your experience, my experience, which probably took place many years before yours, (Single Six revolvers were years away) I learned to shoot with a single shot 22 rifle. I learned to place my shot where it would do the most good. I only had one chance. I learned a valuable lesson about reloading, that being that your quarry usually got away.

When I began to contemplate defending life and limb, it occurred to me that I was no longer limited to the least of weapons. And no one was waiting to award me a prize for using the least number of shots to preserve that life and limb.

I further determined that no one would think the less of me for carrying more ammunition than I might have occasion to need. And there certainly was no prize offered for what type of gun I used.

Now if someone offers me a LOT of cash to carry a particular weapon, say a revolver or single shot pistol, I will have to consider that possibility. Until then, I will carry what works for me. I never limit myself on purpose. There is nothing to be gained monetarily by doing so.
 

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My thoughts, only applies to me:
  • Any gun will stop most encounters, even with multiple attackers. The first shot fired tends to get them to scramble. Predators of any species #1 instinct is to not get injured trying to make a kill.
  • No handgun will stop all encounters. I don't care what caliber you carry or how many rounds it has, there are rare situations where it will not be enough.
  • I had a great shooting instructor once. I asked him, "How many rounds do I need?" He said, "It depends on how often you plan on missing." Accuracy is king.
  • The first shot is the most important. Whatever you feel gets you the quickest first shot hit in a likely scenario is probably going to be a good bet for you.
  • The most likely scenario in which a non-LEO might have to shoot, and the most dangerous scenario, according to Grant Cunningham, who has made an extensive study of such things, is an ambush. You will be in physical contact with the attacker and you are going to have to use H2H skills in addition to your gun. The snubby excels in this situation.
  • According to Claude Werner's study of real-world incidents, reloads are very rarely required in non-LEO defensive shootings, regardless of handgun capacity. Hi-cap shooters often empty the mag, whether they needed to or not.
  • Also according to Werner, people tend to make too much of what he calls "sentinel events." These are extreme situations that get a lot of publicity and discussion, but are really extreme anomalies. This includes events like someone having to take a 100 yard shot or fire 45 rounds. Those events loom large in discussion, but the chances of them happening, especially to a non-LEO, are infinitesimal.
  • Defensive carry is all about managing risk. How much insurance do you need? How safe a car do you need? How big do your fire extinguishers need to be? That is all up to your personal perception and choice. There is no one right answer, only a right answer for you. Carry what makes you comfortable. But it is good to have all the information available to make an informed choice.
  • Oh, and it doesn't need to be either or. There is no reason not to carry a hi-cap and a snubby.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
In stark contrast to your experience, my experience, which probably took place many years before yours, (Single Six revolvers were years away) I learned to shoot with a single shot 22 rifle. I learned to place my shot where it would do the most good. I only had one chance. I learned a valuable lesson about reloading, that being that your quarry usually got away.

When I began to contemplate defending life and limb, it occurred to me that I was no longer limited to the least of weapons. And no one was waiting to award me a prize for using the least number of shots to preserve that life and limb.

I further determined that no one would think the less of me for carrying more ammunition than I might have occasion to need. And there certainly was no prize offered for what type of gun I used.

Now if someone offers me a LOT of cash to carry a particular weapon, say a revolver or single shot pistol, I will have to consider that possibility. Until then, I will carry what works for me. I never limit myself on purpose. There is nothing to be gained monetarily by doing so.
Yes, that makes sense...to you, which was my point about our personal POU. You see a snub as "limited" and I see a belt carried service pistol as "limited" but, for very different reasons.
 

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My thoughts, only applies to me:
  • Any gun will stop most encounters, even with multiple attackers. The first shot fired tends to get them to scramble. Predators of any species #1 instinct is to not get injured trying to make a kill.
  • No handgun will stop all encounters. I don't care what caliber you carry or how many rounds it has, there are rare situations where it will not be enough.
  • I had a great shooting instructor once. I asked him, "How many rounds do I need?" He said, "It depends on how often you plan on missing." Accuracy is king.
  • The first shot is the most important. Whatever you feel gets you the quickest first shot hit in a likely scenario is probably going to be a good bet for you.
  • The most likely scenario in which a non-LEO might have to shoot, and the most dangerous scenario, according to Grant Cunningham, who has made an extensive study of such things, is an ambush. You will be in physical contact with the attacker and you are going to have to use H2H skills in addition to your gun. The snubby excels in this situation.
  • According to Claude Werner's study of real-world incidents, reloads are very rarely required in non-LEO defensive shootings, regardless of handgun capacity. Hi-cap shooters often empty the mag, whether they needed to or not.
  • Also according to Werner, people tend to make too much of what he calls "sentinel events." These are extreme situations that get a lot of publicity and discussion, but are really extreme anomalies. This includes events like someone having to take a 100 yard shot or fire 45 rounds. Those events loom large in discussion, but the chances of them happening, especially to a non-LEO, are infinitesimal.
  • Defensive carry is all about managing risk. How much insurance do you need? How safe a car do you need? How big do your fire extinguishers need to be? That is all up to your personal perception and choice. There is no one right answer, only a right answer for you. Carry what makes you comfortable. But it is good to have all the information available to make an informed choice.
  • Oh, and it doesn't need to be either or. There is no reason not to carry a hi-cap and a snubby.
That last bullet point bears repeating. "There is no reason not to carry a hi-cap and a snubby."
 

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Yes, similar to that recent video of a police shooting, where the female officer tased a man and he still got up and stabbed her. I don't recall exactly how many shots the officers fired, but it was more than any revolver carries.
I seem to recall that 21 shots were fired.
 
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Discussion Starter #17
You see the whole point is I have not seen a single response to this thread that I can disagree with. Its your POU, not mine. It's not a debate its a discussion on what drives your POU. I appreciate our differences more than not and in most all cases can find your reasons valid.
 

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And all this begs the question, "What possible difference does it make what each person carries or why? The only important issue is that we DO CARRY."

And no, I don't see ANY firearm as limited. Even my 1951 Colt Navy will do the job. That wasn't the point. There is no one paying me to carry any kind of weapon - so I choose what works for me. Just as you choose what works for you.

I do wonder why it is that folks who choose to always carry a revolver feel the need for affirmation. There is only one opinion that is important to me - mine. Nothing personal.
 

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And all this begs the question, "What possible difference does it make what each person carries or why? The only important issue is that we DO CARRY."
Well, the thing is, that in the spirit of forum, that’s what it’s all about. Sharing and exchanging different ideas, concepts and ways of doing something with a explanation for the benefit of others, or to give others something to think about that maybe they never considered.

It’s all good....
 

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These discussions always seem to focus on what happened to "That Cop". The main difference between me and "that cop" is that I have no responsibility to hang on to the BG, My Gun is to either effect my get away or make him getaway!
My gun is a Get me out of trouble gun, not the Cops Lets go toward trouble gun! DR
 
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