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Discussion Starter #1
I dunno :confused: ...What do you guys think is a suitable amount of time for you to be able to get access to your carry weapon if you ever REALLY NEED IT in a super big hurry?
I'm being really serious here.
In fact...I've never been more serious than right now on this forum.
I see these threads popping up for Smart Carry & Thunderwear The Kramer Confident Shirt...to mention the "top three" (at the bottom of the barrel) & I would humbly like to suggest that you not even consider that much Deep Firearm Concealment unless you really need it for some good and very specific reason.
If that is the ONLY WAY that you can secrete a firearm "on your person" rather than NOT be able to have that firearm "On Your Person" then Go For It.
You maybe want one for your Back Up Gun? ~ Go for it.
Otherwise...just plain forget it.
My fear is that someday the coroner is going to maybe find some of you good folks stone/cold/stiff :dead: and with your "gun hand" either jammed down your pants or stuck up under your armpit.
Having a firearm with you will not keep you either safe or alive.
Having a firearm with you and being able to present and fire that weapon before the BG kills you...will keep you safe and alive.
"Plenty Of Time" is probably not ever a luxury that you'll have in good defensive shooting.
Whatever "mode of carry" EVEN SLIGHTLY impedes your ability to get your muzzle on target ASAP should NEVER be considered as your first choice carry option.
You would HONESTLY be better served with your hand already on a little .25 caliber DAO semi~auto in your coat pocket than with a Compact .45 stuck guarding your family jewels :banana: way down there inside your pants.
Please shop around for a high quality holster designed by a good professional maker.
Buy yourself a good gun belt.
Please try some various holster cants & styles and O'clock positions & then tailor your wardrobe toward good concealment coupled with fast access to your carry firearm.
When the youthful Bad Guy suddenly pops up & is tearing full speed ahead around your car with a tire iron over his head and your head is his intended immediate target...where is YOUR particular gun hand gonna be?
I'm just wondering. :rolleyes:
Go ahead...rate this thread. :biggrin:
 

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Wyatt Earp never thought speed was important. He lived to be 82 and last worked as a Hollywood instructor teaching actors how to handle firearms.

"Speed is fine. Accuracy is final."

How am I supposed to argue with that?
 

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I know what you mean QK and im still trying to figure out what i can carry at work and hide ... I have thought of trying to find one of the little baby brownings to carry when welll im not supposed to ..

I generally dont go into bad areas but somedays i do and would like to be better prepared than just standing there with my Tool bag in one hand and computer in the other if some gangbanger decides he wants my money or a shot at me ..

Would i prefer to carry a 1911 or my Glock you bet ya .. But if caught its automatic termination yes my life is worth more than my job but i would like something that wouldnt be as obvious as a 4-5 inch Pistola ..


Thought about modifying tool bag to carry a piece in it but same problem i would run into with thunderware smartcarry etc to slow to access..

Been thinking of wearing my uncle mikes pouch that looks like a volt meter case and packing my 9mm in it might not be obvious then again it might surely wouldnt pass the test at work .


So it puts me in a dilima what to do ..
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Tourist

Argue with it.
If Wyatt Earp was still alive...I would take him "out back" to the wood shed and spank his behind with a hickory switch. :frown:
Speed is absolutely essential and Accuracy is just as Important.
We cannot select one at the expense of the other.
After a Hollywood "shoot out" everybody gets up and walks away.
Big Difference. :wink:
In this day and age of instant explosive rage...Wyatt Earp can't be your Sage.
I'm trying to be a poet. :biggrin:

All the accuracy in the world won't help you even the slightest bit if your firearm is still stuck in your Smart Carry or your Kramer Confident when your lights go out.

In 2005 SLOW = :dead:

SLOW BUT SURE only wins the race when you're running against a silly rabbit.
 

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Hmmmmm. "Levels" come to mind. If the threat is running toward you, you might be better served with a blade, or OC/CS, of some sort coming out, to close in, "in the grope", and convince them to give some space.

If your carry is too open-for-access, you'll probably be talking to the nice Policeman for flashing, at some point. I would agree that carry should dictate fashion, and not the other way 'round. I would also agree that the stuff along the lines of Thunderwear should not be the routine mode of carry. But. Strong-side, FBI cant, belt-carry will not always be possible.

I think a lot of folks buy some of these holsters for the James Bond appeal, and so that they don't have to dress-to-conceal (spending $$ to do it right). That thinking will come around to bite you in the a**. :wink:
 

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Wyatt didn't have to worry about speed like we do, because his gun was right out there in the open, strapped to his thigh. If only he could see us fumbling under our shirts, grabbing under our armits, down our crotches, and reaching for our ankles.

Speed is important.

I think the longer it takes for you to draw, the more you'd better be prepared to defend yourself hand-to-hand. Your gun needs to be able to be unholstered and made ready with one hand for this reason, because your other might be busy deflecting a knife blade, a hail of fists, or a dog's vice-grip jaws.

I was watching World's Wildest Police Videos yesterday. A jeweler watched a suspicious man enter his store. Both were armed. The thief made like he was leaving, and then wheeled around, drawing his gun. The jeweler also drew his gun from his waistband, but he forgot to disengage his safety. The thief shot him three times in the chest and then walked up to the man to take his Rolex. He took the watch and then put the gun up to his head and squeezed the trigger. He was out of ammo.

The jeweler was lucky to live. The whole event went down in seconds.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Betty

Oh...am I ever glad that you "chimed in" on this one. :smile: I appreciate your wise words and the great example. Thanks for your help.

Rob72 ~ Thank You also for your addition. Very common sense logical comment.

I was reading a web article recently about the "latest genre" of Prison Schooled Bad Guy & "GANG CODE" concerning the increasingly more common "Career Criminal" philosophy (these days) seems to often be...Take out the witnesses fast and first...
No Witness ~ No ID to the crime.
It's all part of the overall total devaluation of human life in the Thug World of Year 2005 & beyond.
 

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I agree that deep concealment is not a great first choice for carry. However, if the choice is between deep concealment or not carrying at all, I'm going to choose deep concealment and do my best to adjust for the increase in response time. The defensive posture has to change with what and how you carry.
 

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I was at a Gun Show here in Ma/NH. I always see the same guy who sells and sports the "thunderwear" stuff. He was showing how he could "hide" a full size 1911. I ALSO observed how he had to fumble with it in order to get it out of his nikkers. I calmly walked up to him and told him what I observed and expressed to him , with a couple of potential customers there, how he would have been dead by now, had he been in a real gunfight. As I expected, he totally ignored me, BUT the customers shook their heads and walked on. Point of story is.. Even if you have it in your pants, it's too late to get it out, especially if you're not reading peoples faces or body language. My safest bet is something I have my hand on, whether it's in my jacket or pant pocket. The other safe bet is not to fumble with your undies to draw your weapon :eek:
 

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After watching several episodes of 'Wild West Tech,' I'm not so sure we are that different.

They were quick to point out that the Earp brothers were 'city kids' and did not wear holsters, but drew revolvers from the pockets of their long coats.

As for the speed of our aggressors, I see little if any difference between a 'drive-by shooting' and being 'bush wacked.'

It's the same game, the aggressor trying to use speed and power to overcome his target or prey.

The fastest gunfighter in those days was John Wesley Hardin. He died from being shot in the back of the head. All of his speed and power failed to protect him from poor situational awareness and a guy with steady aim.

Same for Bill Hickock. Same for Curly Bill Brocius. Same for Jesse James.

As we go to modern times, the city of New York Police Department had one of the best 'hits per shots' record of any agency. Their force of 10,000 officers carried .38 SPLs in full coverage holsters.
 

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The Tourist said:
Wyatt Earp never thought speed was important. He lived to be 82 and last worked as a Hollywood instructor teaching actors how to handle firearms. "Speed is fine. Accuracy is final."
How am I supposed to argue with that?
Well...I wasn't around when Wyatt was like you were Tourist! :biggrin:
BUT, from the numerous accounts I've seen depicted and read about, I dont remember a one where at the moment the SHTF, Wyatt had his arm shoved down his drawers fishin' for his Buntline Colt around the family jewels...but maybe, a first hand account would suggest that once again, the movies are just movies!

Seriously though, if the choice was absolutly no gun or deep concealment, not sure who is gonna look more suspicious, me or the BG, when I'm walkin around with my hand in my pants.
 

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Betty, Good day...Great information. I follow some basic rules and mind you, its not "ALL THE TIME", but I try.
1/ never go in a bad situation unless you cant help it....this includes neighborhoods, places of business, homes of people of bad character etc.
2/ always be aware of your surroundings....I used to practice knowing the cars, people etc everywhere I went and knowing what they were doing..I dont do this as much anymore.
3/ ALWAYS listen to my "GUT"......it will tell me when something is wrong. This I still do on a daily basis.
4/ When in a "this doesnt feel right" situation......follow the 1 second rule. If a person you dont trust, AT ALL! is within 25-30 feet of me, my hand is on my gun.....PERIOD! If its pocket, IWB or whatever carry method Ive chosen, I can have my gun drawn in enough time to pull the trigger if I have to....god forbid.
5/ Always give verbal warning as your hand is on your gun or you are drawing...
The action of you voicing that you are gonna shoot them unless they stop, in most circumstance, will give you a little more time. All but the most stupid or ruthless people, will hesitate for a moment upon knowing what they are up against.
6/ If you have time, seek cover or run away or at the very least back up if you can..distance is your friend in a situation like this.
7/ Shoot until the treat stops. Either he's down or running away. The gun is not put down until time has passed and Im sure its safe. This may be a while.

There are others but these are worth mentioning.........the most important of all is stay calm. If you get angry/excited/paniced then you are not thinking clearly and may cause yourself a world of grief.

Great thread...................Shoot well.
 

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Tourist, Thanks for clearing up on Wyatt Earp's carry method. If we can all walk about wearing long coats to drop our pieces in, that would be dandy. But we can't. We're businesspeople, teachers, housewives, white collar, blue collar, and everything else. Besides the legal aspect, our generally anti-gun society dictates we hide our guns because we're outcasts. So we wear the best clothes we can that conceal our handguns effectively (and hopefully in a manner that allows us to unholster swiftly), while trying to blend in with what job functions we're doing.

Most of us aren't Wyatt Earps, and I'm no Annie Oakley. I can shoot well enough, but I want every edge I can get - if that means being a couple seconds faster than the badguy, I want it.

No one will argue with you that situational awareness isn't important. But situational awareness is not the prevent-all. You can't tout situational awareness and dismiss speed.
 

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Indeed - this really is a ''key issue'' thread.

Tho I have a SmartCarry - it would only ever be - a deep conceal last resort method - entirely the ''better some gun (some way) than zilch''. There are times when in fact with an R9 in my right pocket and hand on it - I reckon I could present quicker than SIG from leather. One advantage of that carry method and a good reason to consider that as a BUG which could become primary.

Overall tho - and as I have said before perhaps I am lucky - my life style allows for almost unbroken 16/7 carry, in the mode of my choice - my OWB 3 to 3.30 - it is so ''always there'' I know that at least I am not ever likely to go for it and think - where the heck has it gone''. Add to that my choice to exclusively now, use that for IDPA - and so my draw becomes ever more improved. I doubt (know!) I will ever match the real fast guys - but having the muscle memory to sweep any cover garment and actually have gun into play smoothly is reassuring.

The final thing that is always in my thoughts is - ''if they are out to get you'' - you are screwed!! If I were a witness and living in solid condition orange/red - I would still rate my chances as slim. No amount (IMO) of awareness and skill can guarantee to stop the determined assailant - but hey - I am hoping not to be that sort of target!

Hopefully I will remain just an obvious ol' phart - but one who with height and weight - and ''radiated'' attitude - will never look like an easy mark. I will not wear that unseen ''victim'' sign.
 

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I feel concealmentis the most important factor first. If no one knows your carrying , you are less likely to to a percieved threat. While speed is important, I feel a larger , more accurate gun is much more important. Given if you have it well hidden , suprise may well be on your side. If the BG sees a weapon , or indications of 1( vest or coat on a hot day) , you may be a more likely first target to em.
 

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The Tourist said:
As we go to modern times, the city of New York Police Department had one of the best 'hits per shots' record of any agency. Their force of 10,000 officers carried .38 SPLs in full coverage holsters.
+1. It's important to remember that, overall, IIRC, PD in general averages about 3 rounds expended for each hit, </=25 yds. This is where training comes in. The "average" banger runs roughly twice that (6 shots/hit @ >10 yds). If you train, time and distance are your allies.

If you have to draw, you are most likely "drawing into the drop"- the BG will already have their weapon out. You can't carry your 1911 in-hand as you cart groceries into the house/to your car. You can carry a can of key-chain OC/CS (with only 1 house and 1 or two car keys attached), or a "stylus" , or something akin to a Kershaw Leek, in your fist. By having to draw, you have to recognize that your situational awareness has already failed (unless, for instance, you are interceding to prevent a homicide), and it very unlikely (but not impossible) that the agressor will pick a moment when you have a free hand.

The jewelry store owner is a prime example of social-conditioning: he should have turned to "adjust himself", and kept his drawn weapon by his side. He hoped it wouldn't escalate. I've PO'd my wife on more than one occassion by answering the door at night with a long knife hiding behind my forearm. Preparation and mindset.

But back to the issue of speed: can you draw in the space between two cars? Can you draw on your back? On your side? If the pistol is your primary response tool, the training need is exponentially increased. I don't have a place I can live-fire, dropping on my back, etc., etc., so I carry tools besides a hammer. I have three "regions" I carry a weapon of some sort. The "region" I can access determines the immediate level of response. (Will it be folding knife, HAK/pistol, OC, light/impact device, Cross pens, etc..) The tool I start with may not be the most appropriate, but it serves (hopefully!) to buy time and space.
 

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This is why I decided when I got interested in CCW I needed a small, safety-less gun that could slip in and out of a trouser pocket.

Access is as quick as it gets, it's easy on easy off, it fits in my wardrobe.

Now is a .38 caliber snubnose a gun I particularly relish using in a real honest to goodness fight? Lord no.

Now on the other side of this argument, I do feel a gun 10 seconds away is so much better than a gun 10 minutes away. I've read and heard people say "I just wish there'd been a gun somewhere... I could have done something."

My personal preference, what I aspire to, is to carry two guns. One small and quick to access at social distances, and another one better suited to personal protection.
 

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Well, after reading some of the posts in this thread, I reckon I don't want to get in a gun fight with y'all. :rolleyes:
Fortunately, I don't end up in many "fast draw" gunfights anyway, so I guess it's not much of a concern for me.
Seriously, there are many summertime situations (for me) where the choice is:
1- snubby in deep concealment
2- no gun

For instance, I coach T-ball 4 nights a week.. I have to wear shorts and a tucked in jersey. Or spending a day at the beach wearing shorts and a tank top (or no top). A cover garment is not an option alot of the time in my social circles. :stooges:

Do we need to review my 2 options again? Take yer pick, but I know which one I'm picking.

Before I owned a "deep cover" holster, there were times a carried a gun, and times I couldn't.
Now that I have more carry options, I can carry more often.

In closing, make no mistake about it. My first choice is always my 1911 in an IWB holster under an unbuttoned open shirt. But when that methos of carry is not possible...I'll go with a j-frame in a smart carry holster rather than going without.
YMMV, Goodluck. :smile:
 

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Alright here is a thought that has not been mentioned yet. Someone new to CCW just spent a good amount of money on class, fingerprints, application, etc. Perhaps bought a handgun to carry and found out the nylon holster they bought out of the sales bin at the gun shop won't conceal under a parka. Some of these deep concealment items seem like a good deal. The advertising is good and why spend $70 on a leather holster, $100 on a gun belt, and $30 on a mag carrier that will only fit one gun when you can get a Kramer shirt or Smart carry for $40-$50 and carry almost any gun with it.
I go for the good leather because I want a comfortable carry and quicker presentation. If I draw I am most likely already a step behind. I am sure there are times for alternative deep concealment but overall I perfer a strong side belt holster. Just my .02 cents.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Brian45

Man...are we ever reading off the very same page today!
Good comment ~ Thanks. :biggrin:
 
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