Defensive Carry banner

1 - 20 of 59 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,118 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Check this out-

YouTube - Kahr PM9 - Very Good But Has Problems with Magazine

This explains the issue I had with both my PM9's - the inability to manually clear a dud from the chamber with the standard "tap, rack, bang" method. With JHPs, I would always get the top round in the mag jammed into the feed ramp. This explains why - and that it seems to be a design issue. The top round in the mag assumes a nose-down attitude.

Smacking the back of the slide, or upwards on the bottom of the mag, sometimes got the round to feed.

Good issue to be aware of...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,056 Posts
The Mag's Kahr makes do SUCK its the only issue we have had with the PM9 (especially) & PM45
I too hope that they design a better Mag :yup:

Just a note though:
The Kahr pistols were not designed to manually rack the slide to chamber a round (as shown in video). It says in the manual to only chamber a round using the "slide stop" lever.
Maybe its just a written solution to this particular problem though :rolleyes:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,118 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
It says in the manual to only chamber a round using the "slide stop" lever.
Maybe its just a written solution to this particular problem though :rolleyes:
You are correct. This isn't an issue if you are chambering a round with the slide locked open, like after the pistol has run empty. You just need to use the slide lock release lever instead of the "slingshot" method. Of course, some would say this IS an issue, since most instructors teach the use of the "slingshot" method because it is a gross motor skill, as opposed to the use of the slick lock lever, which is a fine motor skill. Fine motor skills degrade under stress.

However, if you need to clear a dud from the chamber, it is absolutely an issue. Manually racking the chambered round always resulted in a jam for me, unless there were five rounds or less in the mag - just like in this video.

The only ammo that cured this issue was PowRBall, or FMJ.

When I've posted about this issue before, in an attempt to alert others of a design issue with this pistol, I had PM9 owners and others tell me to "rack it like a man.":rolleyes: Well, as you can see in the video, it is indeed a design issue.

If you have a PM9, be aware of this, and be prepared to smack upwards on the bottom of the mag if you get such a jam. This worked better for me than trying to smack the slide forward to force the round to feed.

Of course, I ultimately solved this issue by getting a Glock 26.:yup:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,849 Posts
If you have a PM9, be aware of this, and be prepared to smack upwards on the bottom of the mag if you get such a jam. This worked better for me than trying to smack the slide forward to force the round to feed.
Never had any issue like this or any other issue with my PM9 or CW40 with many hundreds of rounds through both. It makes zero difference if I rack the slide or use the slide release. So if its a "design issue" mine do not have it. My Kahrs have been flawless and I mean just that flawless (as in no issues at all ever, not one of any kind) and the 3 or 4 friends I shoot with regularly that own Kahrs have not had or reported any issues either.....makes one wonder! I can and only will speak from my personal experiences and first hand knowledge of these handguns. I have said it before, I run my guns very hard and the Kahrs have performed and held up very well. In my case I am not some guy who runs a box or two in a handgun and states "its flawless". I shoot several times a month and own my own rural property and hunting land so I can shoot basically when ever I want, so I shoot a lot. How many rounds through a handgun do you feel are needed to make a rational call on its reliablity? 300, 500, 750, more? Both my Kahrs have had at least 500-750 rounds of mixed ammo, ball and HP. Enough rounds that I have lost exact count now. I also own two Glocks G19 and G26 and my Kahrs have been just as reliable.......100 percent. If they were not I would just dump them since I have around 30 other handguns and I do not keep a handgun if its problematic. I personally think you just had bad luck with your Kahrs and it left a very bad taste in your mouth and I am sorry about that but get over it and move on. No disrespect to you, but you seam to be on a one man crusade to trash kahrs. You have posted many times on this issue before so we get the drift....you do not like kahrs! Each to his own and I can respect that. I personally have no other reason to like Kahrs other than the facts I stated above which are my experiences with these guns. I think most Kahr owners love them and find them very reliable. They just did not work for you for whatever reason. Such is life...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,118 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
LOL! If it were just bad luck, I would chalk it up to that. Seems quite a few folks have had this issue, given the YouTube video, and some other posts by folks here, and on other forums.

There are new folks here all the time, and lots of folks consider the PM9 when looking for a CCW pistol, for obvious reasons. I have moved on, and am very happy with my Glocks. I am truly happy that you, and others, have not had this issue (or other issues) apparently. That doesn't change the fact that others have, and that this is a potential issue that folks should know about, if they have or are thinking of getting, a PM9.

Why some of these pistols have this issue, and others don't? I don't know. Maybe variances in the feed ramp, or the recoil spring strength. Whatever it is, better to know about it before hand, than to find out while trying to clear the pistol in the middle of a fight.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
239 Posts
I have posted my issues with my PM9 before. I have now gotten it back from Kahr. At this point it has had mag catch, mag catch release spring, recoil assembly and slide replaced, and barrel feed ramp polished. I have 275 rounds through it now since all that, and have only had one FTE (with WWB). Hollow points are feeding fine at this point.
I still haven't shot it in competition, which is always my practice before carrying.
I think this video explains why I may have issues with the PM9 in competition and not in range practice: competition is WAY harder on the mags, and I'm sure some are pulling loose in the angle.

10thmtn, I appreciate your posts on this topic. Yes you have had bad experiences with the Kahrs, but I don't find your posts to be gratuitous negative rants. They are true to your experience and informative. People are free to take from them what they will.

The video answers one question, but raises another: why Glock hasn't come out with a single stack 9mm, and what is the difference between the mag stacking in the subcompacts v the compacts, which are reputed to be more reliable (ie the P9, Walther PPS). Also have any KT PF9 owners reported similar mag issues?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,849 Posts
LOL! If it were just bad luck, I would chalk it up to that. Seems quite a few folks have had this issue, given the YouTube video, and some other posts by folks here, and on other forums.

There are new folks here all the time, and lots of folks consider the PM9 when looking for a CCW pistol, for obvious reasons. I have moved on, and am very happy with my Glocks. I am truly happy that you, and others, have not had this issue (or other issues) apparently. That doesn't change the fact that others have, and that this is a potential issue that folks should know about, if they have or are thinking of getting, a PM9.

Why some of these pistols have this issue, and others don't? I don't know. Maybe variances in the feed ramp, or the recoil spring strength. Whatever it is, better to know about it before hand, than to find out while trying to clear the pistol in the middle of a fight.
You will not find a single handgun made by any manufacturer today that has not had its share of issues, including Glock. Go to any forum related to specific manufacturer and you will find post after post of problem issues.....why, generally because people post on something if they have a problem or need help. I could scour the web and find, and post here numerous negitives about any handgun made today if that was what I wanted to do.......but whats the point. Myself, I make my own informed judgements based on research and first hand experiences. I think most issues related to Kahrs are owner related, (operator error) because of general inexperience with handguns or lack of proper maintenance, care and handling. You and some others (a minority by the way)have had issues, myself and most other Kahr owners have not. I also own 2 Glocks and have had no issues. Should I have let those Glock haters/bashers and isolated "Kaboom" reports influence me........not hardly. Take everything you read on the web with a big grain of salt!

Heck, here's a whole page of youtube videos on Glock problems. Lots of experts on the web....whats one to think?
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=glock+problems&search_type=&aq=f
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
813 Posts
Haven't experienced this issue with my pm9, but have heard of the problems. Wormtown hit the nail on the head...if Glock had a comparable 9mm I would be all over it. Love glocks...can't carry one every day, though. Kahr fills a huge market gap and that is what sold me....luckily mine has been 100% so I stick with it. Appreciate the vid.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
239 Posts
Myself, I make my own informed judgements based on research and first hand experiences. I think most issues related to Kahrs are owner related, (operator error)
This is why I like 10thmtn's posts. He doesn't get into this kind of thing.

My PM9 was malfunctioning multiple times per mag. Goes off for extensive work, now seems very good. Same owner. No new skills.


Back to the original post, the more I think about it, the more I don't buy this mag theory. After all, the MK9 is reputed to be more reliable, and it's the same mags!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,849 Posts
This is why I like 10thmtn's posts. He doesn't get into this kind of thing.
Oh really, kind of like this post made a while back by 10thmtn related to Kahr handguns
http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/1351421-post16.html

An excerpt from the post:

"I will add...most folks who report “no issues” with their Kahr in X hundreds (note – rarely thousands) of rounds do little more than take them to the range and punch holes in paper targets, I would surmise. If you take a Kahr to tactical training, or even the stress of competition, and some of its “quirks” (to put it kindly) start to surface".

I guess all Kahr owners must be gun newbies or idiots who don't have a clue what they are doing! I respect his opinions but this kind of statement has no basis in fact and cannot be proven or even really defended. So if we take him for his words, other Kahr owners like myself who have had no issues with their guns either lie or have just run a box or two of rounds through the gun punching paper and then declare its flawless and the equal to Glocks.........what does that say about all the Kahr owners on this forum? Everybody has a right on an open forum to express their opinions, but this kind of statement shows he (1) had a bad personal experience and (2) wants to make sure everyone else who has had a different experience than him is wrong, has no clue and would not know a relaible handgun from a brick. No other way to look at this statement, and it is somewhat offensive and condescending to all Kahr owners. In reality Kahrs are way down the list as far as favorate handguns that I own but I don't care to be lumped in with the "most folks who report" group, because he is just plain wrong to make that kind of statement.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,765 Posts
I too, have a Kahr without any issues... Yes, 10thmtn likes to bash Kahr's.... We all have different opinions based on different experiences.... 10thmtn is trying to put validity into his claim because there's a you tube video on the subject... If you watched the video, the guy was slowing down the slide to make it malfunction...The video maker, doesn't even carry his weapons loaded...I find it hard to believe in anyone who's too insecure, in his own ability, to carry a loaded weapon...

I disagree with 10thmtn on is his claim that 'most instructors' teach the slingshot method. I would like to see proof that this is true.... I would imagine that's his preferred method, but that doesn't make it the best method... or the most taught...

I think 10thmtn has :deadhorse: enough for everyone...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,118 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
wormtown - I think the mag design is a contributing factor. The top round in the mag is at a steeper angle than the rounds below it, and if it gets out of position for whatever reason, it tends to go nose down.

I checked out Kahr's website, and the part numbers for the barrel are different for the MK9 vs the PM9. Maybe they have a slightly different feed ramp design, which may explain why most issues seem to be with the polymer pistols, and not the steel ones.

As for the rest of you - I'm trying to give folks some info that they may not be aware of. New folks join this forum all the time. I had not seen that video before, and I thought it was interesting, and that others might find it so as well.

I'm not interested in bashing Kahr. I AM interested in folks knowing the potential issues, and in finding out WHY they may be happening. I'm also interested in folks knowing what to do about it, should it happen to them at the worst possible time.

And indeed, the majority of folks who report "no issues" with Kahr pistols themselves report X hundreds of rounds. I've rarely seen someone post that they have Y thousands of rounds through a Kahr with no issues. That's my personal observation from various forums over time.

The unique manual of arms with Kahrs (using the slide release instead of the slingshot method to chamber the first round) is also something folks need to be aware of. And yes, most instructors teach the use of the slingshot method because grabbing the slide, and pulling it to the rear and releasing it, is a gross motor skill. Trying to hit the smallish release lever on ANY pistol is a fine motor skill, and fine motor skills degrade under the stress of combat or competition. If folks took a Kahr to competition, they would likely find that out. I believe Wormtown had such an experience, but I'll let him speak for himself.

I never said or meant to imply that anyone using a Kahr was an idiot - merely that shooting at a static range is not the same as combat or competition, and that such stress tends to bring issues up that will not present themselves otherwise.

I'm sorry if you feel I'm beating a dead horse. I was trying to provide new info, and a possible explanation for the issue as I experienced it, and as has been reported by others.

If you don't like it, feel free to ignore my posts. I won't be offended in the least.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,849 Posts
And indeed, the majority of folks who report "no issues" with Kahr pistols themselves report X hundreds of rounds. I've rarely seen someone post that they have Y thousands of rounds through a Kahr with no issues. That's my personal observation from various forums over time.

That could be said for 95 percent of the handguns forum members report on here. Many if not most people here are reporting on CCW handguns that are carried often and shot relatively little after relaiblity of the handgun is established. Small CCW handguns are not range guns and generally are not the most pleasent and fun to shoot, and thats the overiding factor in the amount of rounds that are fired from these guns, not lack of reliablity or long term serviceability. Kahrs are CCW guns not combat sidearms. They are one of the best selling small CCW brand of handguns for good reasons and Kahr owners tend to be the kind of shooters who do not mind paying for a high quality firearm. Kahrs are not entry level hanguns like say a Kel Tec or Bersa, which both are very serviceable but on the lower end of the scale. As a forum member thats been shooting handguns for 30+ years and competitively for half that time and owns a wide assortment of handguns from most of the major manufacturers, I assure you I compair and rate all my guns agianst the others in my collection and in my opinion kahrs rank high in qualitry for CCW handguns.

10thmtn, I generally hold your opinions and the level of your background, writing skill and knowledge in high esteem, but this issue with Kahrs is apparently a bitter pill for you. I have had bad experiences through the years with individual guns from many of the best known makers like SIG, Ruger, Colt and S&W but I don't look for every opportunity bash or discourage people from purchasing them because of a bad apple or two in the barrel. These kind of issues occur with all brands (see Rugers latest semi auto offerings for example) from time to time, but it just appears to me and some others I guess you are beating this to death and your opinions are slanted and bias agianst Kahr products in general because a certain model you purchased did not work well for you. This idea you have that most Kahr owners only fire a few rounds through their guins and then shout "flawless reliablity" is condesending to other forum members that own Kahr guns. It appears from what you post you tend to make assumptions about others you don't really know solely based on your personal experiences and methods if their experiences, results and methods differ from yours. Maybe I am wrong about this but thats how it looks to me from reading your posts on this issue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,421 Posts
"Gismo thingy":rofl: It's called a follower. And I would be hesitant is following the information of a shooter that isn't confident enough in himself and his equipments ability to not fire unless the trigger is pulled.

I can appreciate his and others efforts to try to come to some rational explanation as to why the rounds on some of the new Kahrs will nose dive when they're not racked with enough force, but like Pirate, my CW9 has had no problems going into battery after the break in. I say break in because unlike some, I for one have no problem allowing a pistol with such tight tolerances to ask for a little slide action to condition the rails for performance, like I said before, there's plenty of new stuff out there that be it firearm, or some other mechanical tool that suggest something related to break in period.

I believe in the Kahr line that in about another couple of weeks I've just about made up my mind to go pick up a PM9 provided I can find one at my gun dealer. It might be the PM40, but it'll be the Kahr none the less. Personally I wish that everyone who had invested in the PM9 would've had the performance that a $600 and up pistol should deliver, but it's a manufactured tool made by man and some for what ever reason just have their hang ups.

As far as the round being wiggly, once the mag is seated in the pistol and pressed up against the slide where it gets peeled off and outa the mag and chambered, its not an issue. I'm very surprised that the genius making the video didn't mention that..... FWIW, and YMMV

GBK
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,118 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Pirate - Thanks for your kind words. I have to say that I disagree with the concept of guns that are "carried a lot but fired a little." IMHO, if you are going to carry a sidearm in public, you need to be proficient with said sidearm, and that only comes from practice - lots of it. If you have a handgun - whatever the make - that is uncomfortable or unreliable, and that limits your ability to practice, you may wish to consider a different sidearm.

For the record, I have had three Kahr polymer handguns. All had serious issues that were not user related - things like spent shell casings caught horizontally in the ejection port because the frame flexed too much, barrel peening, slide peening, and more. That's more than just a few bad apples - even I am not that unlucky!:tongue:

That's the reason I did the reliability polls a while back - to try and cast a wider net, and see what experience others have had. 140 people responded, and while 49% reported no issues, a significant 31% reported three issues or more. I'm glad you are one of the 49% - but - I will feel happier when you can still say that after, say, putting more than 2000 rounds through each of your Kahrs.:smile:

I would just hate for someone to pull a PM9 in a defensive situation, pull the trigger, get a "click" (dud), try and rack the slide, and get a jam - and then not know why or what to do. That's all.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,751 Posts
i'm really sorry that this turned into a reliability ******* match because i thought the thread was started with the good intention of giving people some insight into a potential problem with a particular firearm and possible steps to correct it...

somebody got offended and turned into a "doesnt happen to me so it isnt an issue and other guns have issues too" thread...

i think we all are aware that kahr builds some very high quality firearms and i think we are also aware that there are many other companies that do also...and likewise many other companies high quality firearms have inherent problems...that every owner may not experience...i really think we ought to be able to discuss them here without turning it into an argument or dick measuring ceremony of sorts...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,421 Posts
:nono: Please keep the measuring thingy outa the conversation.....

Just a differance of opinions going on here, nothing more nothing less.:hand10:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
There are many guns that don't perform well right out of the box and either need some rounds downrange to smooth things out or sometimes need to go back to the mothership for some adjustment. I had some issues with my p-40 when I first got it as it would hang with a round almost in battery. I found that the slide stop was actually touching the next bullet as it feeds up from the mag and dragging the nose down as the slide would start forward. A little work with a stone and it has fed 100% for almost 1000 rounds. I don't think there is a flaw in the mag. design because it doesn't work like a Glock mag or a Colt mag. All 5 of my mags work just fine as designed.
I think the youtube video guy needs to spend more time learning firearms instead of posting videos. Carrying with an empty chamber for additional safety? whose safety, the Bad Guy?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
371 Posts
I have had no issues with my PM9, especially when I follow best practice and rap the full magazine on the heel of my hand after loading. The person in the video is an idiot for not carrying one in the chamber -- that is how the Kahr and other long DA trigger, CCW weapons are made to be carried. If you do that, and use the slide release to initially load the weapon, there is no issue. On top of that, if the person in the video used proper slingshot technique, rather than riding the rail with his hand (and also pushing away energetically with the gun hand and releasing the slide quickly -- a true "slingshot"), the Kahr works just fine that way after break in. Once I got 300-400 rounds downrange out of my (flawless) PM9, and the close tolerances loosened up, I've had no issues racking the slide by hand and feeding the first round.

As has been said, the Kahr is not a service pistol, but designed to be a small, CCW weapon. Just because you "carried a lot but fired a little" doesn't mean you don't shoot enough to become proficient with the weapon, per your assertion. In fact, one of the great advantages of the Kahr over similar CCW-only weapons, like the P3AT and Rohrbaugh, is that you can shoot it in extended range sessions without wear to the gun (see the Rohrbaugh recoil sping issue) or fatigue/pain (ala the P3AT). I regularly shoot 150-200 rounds through my PM9 in a session. So don't even start to lecture me about being "proficient."

Likewise, if you applied your criteria for ruggedness, etc. to all CCW weapons, they all would have dual-stack mags with no less than 15 rounds, tolerance that allow them to shoot in mud, etc. The video compares the PM9 to a G19 -- two entirely different weapons for two entirely different purposes.

The PM9 is IDEAL for its intended purpose -- to be a last resort, 6- or 7-shot weapon to quickly save your life in a draw and fire situation. If I'm going into a gunfight, where I have time to rack the slide and have to worry about changing mags multiple times, you can bet I'm bringing a battle rifle ... not a CCW I can slip into my pocket.

Stop mixing apples and oranges -- or leave the Kahr PM9 alone.
 
1 - 20 of 59 Posts
Top