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Discussion Starter #1
I promised P-95 that I would take video of my version of point-shooting where I use the technique for the first two rounds fired, then switch to aimed fire for all subsequent shots.

I haven't forgotten about it....and I actually went to the range twice with the video camera to take the video. As dry as it has been, BOTH times I have gone, it was POURING rain...and more rain is forecast for both Sat and Sun.

I will be going BACK to the range Sunday to try again.

My technique is this:

I draw to a buzzer set to go off at a random time. As soon as my pistol clears the holster, I fire the first round using point-shooting. As the gun is in mid-draw, I fire a second shot also using point-shooting. I fire the third round at the target once the gun is fully drawn, and for that shot, I use aimed fire.

I continue to use aimed fire on all subsequent targets until I have run through my multiple target drill.

I use point shooting to get off two shots as quickly as possible, then use more accurate aimed fire once I have the gun at full draw. This way, I can maybe beat the BG by being the first to score a solid hit.

Even though I only use it for the first two rounds, point shooting comprises most of my practice time, as I feel the first shots fired are the most important in a real-life confrontation with an armed assailant.

I personally feel that if one waits until the gun is fully drawn, then there is a missed opportunity to score a hit, and the longer it takes for you to fire a shot and hit your target, the more opportunity your assailant has to fire the first shot and possibly score a hit on YOU.

Probably 80 out of every 100 rounds I fire with my carry gun are shot practicing point shooting. I practice by loading a full magazine, then using the buzzer to draw and fire a single shot from the hip. Then I decock my pistol, reholster it, and do it again. That way, I get practice on both getting the gun out of the holster as quickly as possible AND point shooting for a very fast, accurate first shot.


Again, I will take video if it is not raining Sunday and will post a link so that everyone can see what I'm talking about.

I can usually go from buzzer to 3rd shot in well under 2.5 seconds.....but being fast about it doesnt really matter if you cant hit your target.
 

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Crash - amazing eh re that rain - Murphy again!! You must be either up my region or South East - we have a darned near stationary system being a total PITA right now.

Look fwd anyways to what you can manage to vid when time and weather allows. My two main accents this year re practice are movement and point shooting from close retention - so in a sense my first two shots or so will be somewhat after your fashion.

Thx for the feedback.
 

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Crashvector,

A few questions:
  1. What type of targets do you use?
  2. What is the accuracy standard?
  3. How are the targets arranged in relation to the shooter?
Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Blackhawk6 said:
Crashvector,

A few questions:
  1. What type of targets do you use?
  2. What is the accuracy standard?
  3. How are the targets arranged in relation to the shooter?
Thanks.
1. Standard 25 meter small-bore pistol targets
2. Accuracy limited to 6-inch groups @ 15 meters, 4 inches at 10 meters, and 3 inches at 7 meters. Anything outside this parameter is counted as a miss.
3. One dead on, two flanking at 45 degrees to both the left and right. Left flanking target at 15meters, dead on target at 10 meters, right flanking target at 7 meters
 

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Discussion Starter #5
P95:

I couldnt go Saturday because my parents were in town to see their grandkid (wife and I have a 15 month-old....the first grandkid for my parents) so they stayed pretty much all day

I went TWICE today. Once at 9am , and another at 3PM. BOTH TIMES it was raining cats and dogs. I'm starting to think someone up there doesn't like me too much..lol

All this rain out THERE, and Louisiana is under some of the most severe drought conditions on record...but it ALWAYS seems to rain when I want to go shoot.
 

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No sweat - quite understood. No panic.

If you are suffering the same huge slow moving system I am - it is pretty darned persistent. The worst PA rain today was out East - radar made it look like Baltimore and areas to North of that got hammered.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
P95Carry said:
No sweat - quite understood. No panic.

If you are suffering the same huge slow moving system I am - it is pretty darned persistent. The worst PA rain today was out East - radar made it look like Baltimore and areas to North of that got hammered.

No...the problem where I LIVE is that it hasn't rained in WEEKS. It only seems to rain at the GUN RANGE!

It's getting quite annoying..but there isn't a whole lot you can do about Mother Nature.
 

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Anxious to see the vids....
 

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Dim Mak

CrashVector said:
Dim Mak = one-inch punch...right?
Isn't Dim Mak those tasty Chinese appetisers? :)

Actually, I thought it was something like 'Touch of Death' or something like that. Pressure point stuff.

Mind you, you could write what I know about martial arts on the back of a stamp with a paint roller.
 

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CrashVector said:
I can usually go from buzzer to 3rd shot in well under 2.5 seconds.....
Hi,
You mentioned that you would use a "buzzer" - if I got it right a shot timer. If this is the case - you have a shot timer - please post up your times too (first shot, splits, total time.)
I would love to see how it brakes down ----> point shooting vs. aimed shots when we see the actual times.
Is it really faster and how much faster?
I'm still wondering...why IPSC Grand Masters don't use the point shooting technique then?:rolleyes:

Regards,
 

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TheHun:

Actually sir, Robbie Leatham is on record as admitting to using threat focused shooting quite often on the stages of fire, as well as other IPSC Masters.

This isn't going to turn into a PS vs SS now is it?:frown:

As to how much faster? It doen't matter how much faster, it is recorded in many places as faster in certain circumstances, and faster is faster period. When time is of the essence on the street or the matches, those in the know use that skill set.

Brownie
 

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AzQkr said:
Actually sir, Robbie Leatham is on record as admitting to using threat focused shooting quite often on the stages of fire, as well as other IPSC Masters.
If you meant to say that top shooters often (if they can get away with it according to a particular stage) focus on the target - or no focus at all just total feeling- instead of the front sight focus, I know what we talking about...but in these cases the gun is still mounted as it should be, only the point of focus is somewhere else.

I imagined this above mentioned techique as in the old cowboy movies...gun is barley out of the holster, nowhere near where it should be mounted ---> the stance, but already fired a round or two...
I might be watching too much movies.
Anyways the reason for my first post was, I wanted to see the exact times if applicable.
 

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Well, I'm still hoping the weather is more cooperative. I'm still waiting for the vid! :yup:

Oh, and "Dim Mak" isn't Bruce Lee's very real "one inch punch," it refers to the mythical "delayed death" touch or strike.

mm
 

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If you meant to say that top shooters often (if they can get away with it according to a particular stage) focus on the target - or no focus at all just total feeling- instead of the front sight focus, I know what we talking about.]

Thats what I was talking about sir.

If you want to see hip shooting from a random buzzer, you can at this link in the first thread titled "Brownies .43 second draw" if you are member.

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129

It is one COM hit at 8 feet from a kydex OWB rig with a new Glock 17 that day. It took me 10-12 tries to get that time. The first run on the clip was .46 seconds to hit COM and it got faster from there. Not being familiar with timers, I had problems with response to same or else the COM hit would likely have been in the 3/10ths of a second and change range.

Brownie
 

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Discussion Starter #17
its not a shot timer...I use a kitchen timer. I just randomly turn it for a few second's delay.

I use the buzzer as a replacement for a 'threat starter'. Meaning that when the buzzer sounds, I imagine the BG attempting to draw a weapon.

And by 'point-shooting' I am not referring to 'threat-focused' shooting. I am talking about point shooting from the holster.

Most people when they draw, keep the muzzle pointed downward until the gun is up. Instead of doing this, I immedately point the muzzle of my gun at my target and fire. Then as the gun is halfway up, I fire a second round...then a third once the gun is at full draw. All further shots at the target and at the other targets are made using semi-aimed shots.
 

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CrashVector:

I understood what you were talking about. Looking forward to your video clip sir.

The Hun:

Did you get a chance to look at the video of the .43 second draw and first shot on the threat from the timer buzzer I supplied the link to here?

I use both threat foucsed below line of sight without looking at the gun, elbow up/elbow down from the hip as the gun clears the holster and sighted fire.

They are used within their optimum operating parameters based on time restraints and distance to the threat. Lots of tools in the trick bag at my disposal. Though you won't see it in competitions, the EU/ED is super quick on threats with a/b zone hits. I'll take em all day long and not miss out to 10 feet from the hip. Inside that distance, there's no need to ever bring the gun to close to eye level, nor will you likely have the time to do so if you are behind the reactionary curve.

Which is faster? The technique that is the shortest movement to fire on thread, of course.

Brownie
 

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CrashVector,

You have me intrigued by your technique. I am really looking forward to the video. So I am clear,

Originally Posted by CrashVector
I can usually go from buzzer to 3rd shot in well under 2.5 seconds.....but being fast about it doesnt really matter if you cant hit your target.
Is 2.5 seconds an estimate? How are you measuring your time if not with a timer?

Originally Posted by CrashVector
2. Accuracy limited to 6-inch groups @ 15 meters, 4 inches at 10 meters, and 3 inches at 7 meters. Anything outside this parameter is counted as a miss.
I took this to mean that the group consisting of the shot fired immediately upon removal of your pistol from the holster, the shot fired when the weapon is half-way up and the sighted shot meets the aforementioned accuracy standard. Is this correct? If not, what degree of accuracy are you achieving with the first three shots?

Thanks and again, I am looking forward to the video.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Blackhawk6 said:
CrashVector,

You have me intrigued by your technique. I am really looking forward to the video. So I am clear,


Is 2.5 seconds an estimate? How are you measuring your time if not with a timer?


I took this to mean that the group consisting of the shot fired immediately upon removal of your pistol from the holster, the shot fired when the weapon is half-way up and the sighted shot meets the aforementioned accuracy standard. Is this correct? If not, what degree of accuracy are you achieving with the first three shots?

Thanks and again, I am looking forward to the video.

6inch group for the first 3 shots.

Timing is my wife using her Casio Sports watch.

I am once again going to the range Sunday. Come rain or shine I will take video. If it's raining, I wont be able to video the point-shooting as I limit myself as far as range goes to 15 meters tops.

In order to do that, I have to walk out from the benches onto the actual range. If it's raining, I can still shoot...just not using my standard method due to the fact that my camera isn't waterproof...and i don't like the idea of shooting my pistol in the rain.

Hot barrel+Rain = temper loss. (temper as in the metal temper)

But I will do my best.
 
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