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This morning on KSTP-5 news a story was run about a Principle from Norman County East High School advocating teachers should be allowed to pack heat. Here is what was said in brief, their web site has the video

One Minnesota educator says teachers should carry guns in the classroom. Norman County East High School Principal Greg Lund made that statement in reaction to the shootings at Red Lake High School.

Lund says if a teacher or a security guard would have been armed at Red Lake, fewer people would have died. "When the threat is walking the hallways shooting people, there's no way to get away from it unless you've got armed resistence," said Lund.

Judy Shaubach of Education Minnesota says Lund's proposal is ridiculous.

Lund says he plans to lobby school boards across the state.

I say Bravo Principle Lund. He echo's an article I wrote for the Minnesota Sentinel about a week ago. What Ms Shaubach and others do not understand is this proposal is not meant to be a solution to why kids go on these rampages. It is meant to act as a deterent and reduce the potential bloodshed by giving school personel a means of immediate defense of themselves and the students.
 

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That principle will probably loose his job! What amazed me most about that school schooting is how insane it is to have a security guard that is unarmed. Especially considering some of the high profile cases that we've seen these past few years. I can see why people will be sensitive about teacher carrying though, and they'll mention this one incident this week when one teacher went into another class room and started beating that teacher (two women) because one said something to the other's daughter.

But you'd think armed security guards would be more acceptable. But I wonder if that guy would have had a chance. If the kid who did the shooting knew he was armed, he easily could have surprised him. Hard situation all the way around...
 

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Near and dear to me.

The fact is I've never been afraid to go to work no matter what I read in the paper or how rough the students are.

At the very core of my being I feel it's my class room and within it I have authority en loco parentis, which is to say I do not have absolute authority but I do have the authority a guardian would have, even if it's only for an hour and a half at a time. Part of that is making sure the students are safe, but perhaps a bigger part is making them feel safe.

Kids in public schools show a lot of ignorance and fear about firearms. The thing is, unless every single instructor from the bottom up were suddenly to start carrying openly like a LEO so that students were used to it, students are going to project their fear and apprehension of a firearm onto you. That does not create a very good culture for learning.

I've turned it over in my head many times. See a lot of people seem to think I'm afraid of my students because of incidents like this. That's not the reason I even consider it at all. I consider it because of the possibility of some two bit terrorist with a Jennings taking a whole room of kids hostage because he knows no one can stop him. I'm afraid of someone's ex husband storming down the halls with a 12 gauge he stole from a police car looking for his ex wife's daughter so he can blow her away.

The truth is violence in schools like the kind you read about is thankfully very remarkable in its scarcity. Statistically education is a very safe job when it comes to instances of workplace violence.

It's not the students I have any desire to protect myself from. It's people who would use them for their own sick ends because they know they're ultimately helpless.

Being a state run instituition it would seem the solution would be armed law enforcement officers on campus. The problem is the money isn't there, and that also raises the same problem as students knowing the teachers are armed. It creates fear.

"Why are there so many cops here? Is this place dangerous?"

The truth is you'd hope a school would have some aura of sanctity about it. It's one place where people need to feel safe. But it does not.

If anything a school looks like a great place for an extremist Muslim or anyone looking to become famous to hit. Imagine your children being killed by a crude home made bomb after being duct taped to their desks after the lone campus officer was killed as were any faculty who tried to intervene.

On my own I've created a contigency evacuation plan for an armed person attacking the campus for my own room. The district has done fairly well by keeping access to the campus as restricted as possible. I wish they'd let our local PD run some simulations in here.

The trouble is though that most educators are not willing or able to be physical security as well as faculty, and I actually agree they shouldn't have to be. There comes a point where you have to say "That's not my job." or they will walk all over you. Teachers do enough already; you have no idea the stuff some teachers do to keep that school's doors open in addition to their normal duties.

Ultimately, I feel a lot of mixed feelings about whether I actually would or not if I could. The bottom line is however I am not a student I am a citizen. If I am legally certified to both educate and carry a CCW by the same government, why can I not do both at the same time if I so choose? I'm the one agonizing over every little detail of it. Let me decide for myself and live with the consequences darn it.

History is against me though. As early as 1899 a judge ruled a teacher could not have firearms in his class room.

At the conclusion of my CHL class to get my proficiency certificate my instructor asked me if a man charged into your room with a gun and demanded one of your students would he get what he wanted? The answer was not if I'm alive.

You will touch them only over my dead and broken body that I swear.

But for now the decision is made for me. I'm paid by the people of Texas, the taxpayers say no CCW rights for me on the job, and I will honor that request.
 

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havegunjoe said:
One Minnesota educator says teachers should carry guns in the classroom.
Gotta say I agree with him! Being from Denver, I can't help but think that two chicken sh*t punks named Dylan & Kleibold could have been taken out much earlier in their sadistic little "game", minimizing the carnage they unleashed.

The reality is everyone inside Columbine that day was on their own. ..too bad there wasn't an adult with an equalizer, the training, and the fortitude to even up the odds! They talk about arming pilots to secure airline passengers lives. Our children deserve no less than that! :mad:
 

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There is much I don't know of this subject. My thoughts would be arm the teacher if they wanted but after reading Euclidean I would put my trust in him for these decisions. He is on both side of the fence and has a feel for the situation.
 

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The schools are a largely liberalized institution. It would be a very tough fight to get armed guards in a school, much less allowing a properly trained teacher to carry.

I agree with the principle, properly trained teachers should be allowed the means to defend their students. Either that or those who oppose armed guards should be criminally liable for any death that results from their opposition to measures which would protect our children.

It will never happen, but that is my .02$
 

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Shortly after the Columbine shooting, I had a person try to lobby that officers from my LE agency could not bring guns into the school for fear that an officer would be disarmed. Although this persons ideas were not entertained by the community it just goes to show what your dealing with the liberals that are out there.
 

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Since this thread concerns education, I hope no one minds me pointing out that the head of a school is a principal, not a principle. As a retired teacher, I agree 100% with his idea. Never happen though. I seem to recall reading about another educator advocating this and being hounded out of his job. Liberals are firmly in control of our schools.
 

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My attitude is that if you are licensed to carry then you should be allowed to carry. There shouldn't be any restrictions on where a licensed individual should or shouldn't be allowed to carry. Just allowing teachers to carry in schools, or pilots to carry on planes is nonsense. The records show that law abiding licensed CCW holders, are an effective means in fighting violence, and have shown exceptional judgement as to when and how they should use their weapons. Restricting them from carrying in schools and on planes does nothing more then notfiying the bad guy that these are the safest places for them to cause havoc.
 

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Euclidean said:
Near and dear to me.

Kids in public schools show a lot of ignorance and fear about firearms. The thing is, unless every single instructor from the bottom up were suddenly to start carrying openly like a LEO so that students were used to it, students are going to project their fear and apprehension of a firearm onto you. That does not create a very good culture for learning.
I have been teaching in college for over 15 years now and I could have been carrying a concealed handgun and no one would have ever known it. If I could legally carry in my school I would not hesitate to.

Since the gun would be concealed, the students would not fear the gun because they would never know I had it. Second, a would-be murderer, etc. would also not know I had it which would give me a significant advantage.
Euclidean said:
...I consider it because of the possibility of some two bit terrorist with a Jennings taking a whole room of kids hostage because he knows no one can stop him. I'm afraid of someone's ex husband storming down the halls with a 12 gauge he stole from a police car looking for his ex wife's daughter so he can blow her away.

The truth is violence in schools like the kind you read about is thankfully very remarkable in its scarcity. Statistically education is a very safe job when it comes to instances of workplace violence.
Stats don't mean very much to students, faculty, and parents at schools that have been attacked (or that will be attacked), and there have been quite a few attacks in the past 20 years.
Euclidean said:
Being a state run institution it would seem the solution would be armed law enforcement officers on campus.
On the other hand, LEO are readily "marked" and can easily and without warning be taken out or avoided by an attacker(s). All they have to do is either avoid the areas the LEOs are in or simply walk up and shoot them in the head and take their gun and ammo.

Teachers with concealled weapons are much more difficult to deal with than uniformed officers. The teachers are generally where the students are, look like ordinary teachers, and are essentially uniformly distributed throughout the school facility. In other words, they are where it’s going to happen.
Euclidean said:
… also raises the same problem as students knowing the teachers are armed. It creates fear.
They shouldn’t know the faculty is armed.
Euclidean said:
The trouble is though that most educators are not willing or able to be physical security as well as faculty, and I actually agree they shouldn't have to be. There comes a point where you have to say "That's not my job." or they will walk all over you. Teachers do enough already; you have no idea the stuff some teachers do to keep that school's doors open in addition to their normal duties.
I know about “Teachers do enough already”, but being armed could save their very life and the lives of their students.
Euclidean said:
At the conclusion of my CHL class to get my proficiency certificate my instructor asked me if a man charged into your room with a gun and demanded one of your students would he get what he wanted? The answer was not if I'm alive. You will touch them only over my dead and broken body that I swear.
That happened at Columbine. A teacher put himself in harms way to protect his students but they all still got shot – him first as I understand it.

If a determined armed man enters a basically unprotected class room he will get what he wants; it’s just a matter of how many will die trying to stop him.

We may not stand much of chance with such a person if we are armed, but how much less if we are unarmed.

In all of my classrooms, there is one way in and one way out, no windows that can be opened for escape. If I were given a choice, I would carry concealed without a second thought.
 

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Tangle this is where our experiences differ.

Do your students ever stick their hands in your pockets, grab stuff, and say "What's this"?

Do they jump off of desks and bump into you in the process?

Your students are there because they want to be (I would hope!). Mine see me as the enemy and have little to no respect in many cases. Now usually eventually I fix this by giving them respect but it takes time. Some students never gain any respect at all.

Now maybe there is a concealed carry solution for even this situation, but the fact as that as adults, we respect each other's personal space. It's why concealment works and works well.

Concealed carry is not anonymous. All they have to do is call the toll free number and give them your name and they will be told whether or not you have a permit.

But overall Tangle I feel your sentiment.

See my dilemma, if it were legal, would be can I solve the retention issue? It has to be made safe for the students.

Assuming that can be surmounted, and I bet it could be if someone with better knowledge of carry methods than myself were to work on it, it becomes do I want to lose my career over a lawsuit or a false accusation? I'd have to weigh that against the likelihood of an aggressor.

The way I see it I lose either way. If I don't carry I'm putting innocent people in danger by being negligent. If I do carry I'm putting my career on the line. All one vindictive kid or parent has to do is say "Mr. G pointed a gun at me..." and that's it.

What am I supposed to do when my co workers ostracize me for doing it? I can't do my job effectively without their cooperation.

There's my whole problem in a nut shell I guess. First of all could it be done safely? Second of all can I afford the possible backlash for doing it?

It's still decided for me in a way. I bet you $10 our insurance company would not allow CCW on the premises.

It's that old Catch 22. It is morally wrong for me to not carry because I'm not protecting my students. It's also morally wrong for me to carry because it's illegal and as an educator I must uphold the law. It's part of a code of ethics I agreed to when I took the job. Either way I'm a scum sucking SOB.

What I want Tangle is the ability to decide like a free citizen should have. Then maybe I can come over to your side or maybe I can decide to go the other way on this issue. What I really want is the ability to make my own mistakes. Then I'll decide whether or not it's a good idea.
 

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Canton High School Coach shot

Well, some lunatic went to the Canton High School in Canton Texas (about 60 mi. south of me) today and shot the head coach with what they said was an AK-47. The news said the coach was in ICU but was stable...they found the bozo in in the woods near Tyler bleeding from cut wrists....said he had over 20 weapons in his truck....seems the idiot had an ongoing "disagreement" with the coach for over a year...also said he had a list with 5 other intended victims...kinda confusing, cause the initial report said his son was on the list.

Anyway, yep, I think in today's world, it would be prudent to arm teachers for a "first reponse" capability....having a uniformed security guard is useless....is an obvious target.

What the hell has our generation created ?
 

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Euclidean said:
It's that old Catch 22. It is morally wrong for me to not carry because I'm not protecting my students. It's also morally wrong for me to carry because it's illegal and as an educator I must uphold the law. It's part of a code of ethics I agreed to when I took the job. Either way I'm a scum sucking SOB.

What I want Tangle is the ability to decide like a free citizen should have. Then maybe I can come over to your side or maybe I can decide to go the other way on this issue. What I really want is the ability to make my own mistakes. Then I'll decide whether or not it's a good idea.
Lets hope the both of you make it long enough for the "correct decisions" to finally filter down through the powers-that-be, before it's too late, although I wouldn't hold my breath!!

I wager that anyone who had the means & skill to intervene and stop the murderous slaughter of innocence, would be hailed a hero and have the full support of the community, and if not...oh well...you and the others you saved that day would still be alive to fight another day. It's a tough deal no doubt!
 

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ExSoldier762's replies in ()

Euclidean said:
Tangle this is where our experiences differ.

#1. Do your students ever stick their hands in your pockets, grab stuff, and say "What's this"?

#2. Do they jump off of desks and bump into you in the process?

#3. Mine see me as the enemy and have little to no respect in many cases. Now usually eventually I fix this by giving them respect but it takes time. Some students never gain any respect at all.

#4. Concealed carry is not anonymous. All they have to do is call the toll free number and give them your name and they will be told whether or not you have a permit.

#5. But overall Tangle I feel your sentiment.

#6. See my dilemma, if it were legal, would be can I solve the retention issue? It has to be made safe for the students.

#7. Assuming that can be surmounted, and I bet it could be if someone with better knowledge of carry methods than myself were to work on it, it becomes do I want to lose my career over a lawsuit or a false accusation? I'd have to weigh that against the likelihood of an aggressor.

#8. The way I see it I lose either way. If I don't carry I'm putting innocent people in danger by being negligent. If I do carry I'm putting my career on the line. All one vindictive kid or parent has to do is say "Mr. G pointed a gun at me..." and that's it.

#9. What am I supposed to do when my co workers ostracize me for doing it? I can't do my job effectively without their cooperation.
#1 (Ummmm NO My kids know that to actually lay hands on me results in broken bones)
#2 (I don't allow any such "monkey shines")
#3 (Yup, this mirrors my experiences EXACTLY)
#4 (Sorry, not in Florida for folks like me. It's a felony for any license division [drivers or CCW] to give out info on former LEOs.)
#5 (YUP)
#6 (I'd say a level III retention holster.)
#7 (Good point)
#8 (I asked my kids just the other day in sociology how they'd feel if their teachers were armed. Even the girls said that if the teachers carried guns so too should the students---just for parity!)
#9 (Naaaaaah, I don't care in the least about that. I'm already only one of two conservatives in the whole dang school! I just LIVE to "Push Their Buttons!")
 

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Well I don't tolerate such things as I've mentioned and they don't happen every day, but they do happen. The fact that the punishment is swift and severe does not prevent it from happening.

The last student who pulled a stunt like that (he did a backflip and then rolled around on the floor after being told not to), well that was the last nail in the coffin as far as my principal was concerned. He suspended him immediately for the remainder of the day and the next day. The student was sent to the Academy, and has subsequently dropped out. He had it coming too, and I tried to warn him so many times.

I've never once felt smug when I do turn out to be right about things like this. Rather, I feel just the opposite. That young man's life is now officially a complete wreck because of his decision to pull that stunt and the subsequent decision he made to drop out. I can't help but wonder, could I have prevented it somehow?

And I think, and I stay up late at night unable to sleep like I do tonight, and I realize ultimately no, I could not have prevented these events. Even if I'd somehow kept him from doing that in my presence he'd have just done it somewhere else. He wanted to do it and no one can force him not to. He chose his drug centered life.

I can dole out swift and terrible justice but inevitably someone else will pull a stunt like that again.
 

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Euc, these have been some of your best posts ever that I have had the chance to read. I got a sense from your first post what it is like to be a professor to which I say thank you. I know that I would not have the patience to carry out your mission/occupation. I take my hat off to you sir for yours is a very difficult often underrated position in our society that routinely goes without a "thank you."

~A
 

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Very deep and often contentious subject this.

But what a great thread - much excellent input and Euc, - you Sir make a most erudite presentation. Thank you.
 

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Euclidean said:
Well I don't tolerate such things as I've mentioned and they don't happen every day, but they do happen. The fact that the punishment is swift and severe does not prevent it from happening.

The last student who pulled a stunt like that (he did a backflip and then rolled around on the floor after being told not to), well that was the last nail in the coffin as far as my principal was concerned. He suspended him immediately for the remainder of the day and the next day. The student was sent to the Academy, and has subsequently dropped out. He had it coming too, and I tried to warn him so many times.

I've never once felt smug when I do turn out to be right about things like this. Rather, I feel just the opposite. That young man's life is now officially a complete wreck because of his decision to pull that stunt and the subsequent decision he made to drop out. I can't help but wonder, could I have prevented it somehow?

And I think, and I stay up late at night unable to sleep like I do tonight, and I realize ultimately no, I could not have prevented these events. Even if I'd somehow kept him from doing that in my presence he'd have just done it somewhere else. He wanted to do it and no one can force him not to. He chose his drug centered life.

I can dole out swift and terrible justice but inevitably someone else will pull a stunt like that again.
Seems like an awful harsh attitude for the crime of doing something so simple as a "backflip in your presence!" You know, all kids have a need to fit in, and some do it by being jocks, some by scholastic achievements, and others by being the class clown, the showoff, or the jokester. It doesn't make them bad kids deserving of "swift and terrible justice."

I know, I was one of the latter when I was a kid! I'm sure I pushed many a teachers buttons in my day. But there was also a teacher who saw through the facade, and had the patience and wisdom to reach out and work with me...to help me down the path. I don't imagine you ever had any of these troubles when you were in school.

You say his life is a complete wreck now and wonder if you could have prevented it? Well, maybe not...but maybe you could lighten up on the "small sh*t" and show a little more tolerance instead of swinging away with the mighty sword of vengence!

Opinions are like as*holes....this is just mine!
 

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Perhaps we should heed Judy Shaubach's advice.

After all, she knows her teachers better than we do and obviously believes that the students would be in greater danger from teachers with guns than from killers with guns. :dead:
 
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