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So; hypothetically you take a short cut through a rough city neighborhood. You have a flat and have to pull over to change it. A guy comes walking down the street with a hoodie and a firearm stuck in the front of his pants in plain sight. Do you think, oh good just another 2A citizen like myself? Or would you think this guy is trouble? I profile and think this is a bad situation, and I think most people think the same. You have no way of knowing, but depending on where you are, this is a bad guy. Best of course avoid these places at all cost especially during the night. But there are some 'citizens' who do not need to be carrying a gun. However I have been to the mall, and seen a well dressed person with open carry and felt safe. Just something to think about.
 

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My Dad went to NYC in the 70's for a work conference. His hotel was a few blocks from the Empire State Building. He and a coworker decided they could walk there. They barely had gone around the side of the hotel when they met a man walking the other way who had just had one ear cut off. They took a taxi instead...

The driver said specifically that there were blocks/neighborhoods that if the cab would move, you kept it moving, even if that meant driving on rims, blowing out coolant, leaking oil, knocking/missing/rolling smoke.

In this threads scenario, just keep rolling on the tire/rim until a better location presents itself.
 

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  • So; hypothetically you take a short cut through a rough city neighborhood. Mistake #1 - bad shortcuts are not worth it.
  • You have a flat and have to pull over to change it. Mistake #2 - as was already said, you can keep moving on the rim, or you could stay in you car and call AAA.
  • You have no way of knowing, but depending on where you are, this is a bad guy. Don't judge books by their covers. If you are broken down in a bad area, you should be suspicious of everyone. Besides, what can you do? Unless he pulls his gun or threatens you, you can't pull your gun on him. Bad guys don't usually OC. They pull their guns right before they are going to point them at you. The guy in your scenario may just be trying to get home and wants the bad guys in his neighborhood to know not to mess with him.
  • ...there are some 'citizens' who do not need to be carrying a gun Based on how they are dressed? Where is that in 2A? Either they are legal or they are not and looks are not the criteria. I was walking my dogs one day and a passed black guy in dirty jeans and a t-shirt OC'ing an SP101. He was doing landscaping at house on that street. If he stopped in a convenience store after work, he would have been profiled by your standards. I walked past a tough looking black guy in Kroger once who was OC'ing a Shield. Didn't bother me.
  • However I have been to the mall, and seen a well dressed person with open carry and felt safe. Most malls don't allow open carry, so that would be odd. Keep in mind there have been multiple serial killers, mob killers and armed robbers who have made a point of being well dressed and well groomed.
I look more for behaviors. Is anything out of place? Is the guy making unnatural eye contact, too much or too little? Is he looking around to make sure the "coast is clear" as he approaches me. If I move, does that change what he does?

People who OC aren't hiding that they are armed, so I would think they are less likely to be criminals. Criminals usually want the element of surprise. On the other hand, OC'ing without a holster is a bit strange. I might be suspicious of that. Just MHO.
 

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All humans profile. it is a natural thing. We are hard wired to assess threats. There is nothing wrong with it.
It is a big part of my situational awareness. Not necessarily a racial thing. Threats come in all shapes and colors.
Just as worried about some white tweaker as a inner city thug.
 

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I try to circumvent having to be in a location that requires me to keep moving, etc. I lived some 40 miles from LA for many years, and in all that time was in LA about half a dozen times. The last time was in the early 90's. As far as profiling, we do so. We assess every person who gains our attention, is in our path, or will intersect our path. Given the things I have seen, I credit this kind of "profiling" with having some measure of help with helping me get old.
 

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I’m unlikely to make those mistakes.
Profiling is a useful survival skill.
 

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I would need more information in order to properly profile. What is this person's skin tone, ethnic ancestry, immigration status, gender identity, voter registration, and carbon footprint?

Until I know that, I would treat everyone with polite suspicion.
 

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My situational awareness is always in high gear no matter where I'm at.

Bad people can be anywhere, not just a "rough city neighborhood". Some of the nicest people I've known live in a "rough city neighborhood." And alot of bad people come from really nice neighborhoods.

What do most people say when the news reporter is interviewing them about their neighbor who was just arrested for chopping up people and burying them in the back yard ? "I would have never thought he would do that, he was the nicest guy."
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Drive on the rims if necessary, good advise I agree. Yea I was surprised to see open carry at a mall, but I did and only the one time. Actually I don't see open carry often at all. Besides profiling for situatial awarness I am sure the police have to do it also. Face tattoos raise awareness, a bad decision on that means probably a lot of bad decisions.
 

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I can give you a suggestion about your scenario. I've been with some very highly experienced law enforcement officers on more occasions than I can count when we encountered someone with a gun. Having it "stuck in a waistband" is pretty much a dead giveaway that this is not someone who is legally armed. Without profiling, cops call this "Mexican carry." At least here in Texas.

The only method of carry worse than that is when the gun is stuck down inside the underwear. I can't repeat in polite company what officers call that. 😝
 

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So; hypothetically you take a short cut through a rough city neighborhood. You have a flat and have to pull over to change it. A guy comes walking down the street with a hoodie and a firearm stuck in the front of his pants in plain sight. Do you think, oh good just another 2A citizen like myself? Or would you think this guy is trouble? I profile and think this is a bad situation, and I think most people think the same. You have no way of knowing, but depending on where you are, this is a bad guy. Best of course avoid these places at all cost especially during the night. But there are some 'citizens' who do not need to be carrying a gun. However I have been to the mall, and seen a well dressed person with open carry and felt safe. Just something to think about.
GREAT!!!! another white junkie in my poor neighborhood looking for his fix spending all his money on smack instead of good tires. Think I'll take a stroll and let him see that if he is thinking of stealing anything to feed his dirty habit it's not happening. It's hard enough dealing with our own criminals in this neighborhood without having to put up with this. God I hope he isn't armed and if he is I bet its illegal......dirty drug fiend. Could happen!!! Anytime we saw white folk in the barrio guess what they were up to. Yup you guessed it Mormans, Jehovahs or engaged in something illegal and if it wasn't Saturday/Sunday before noon it was the illegal kind.
Everyone profiles.
 

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Middle age white guy with his shirt untucked, looks like somebody that would be carrying. ;)
 
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GREAT!!!! another white junkie in my poor neighborhood looking for his fix spending all his money on smack instead of good tires. Think I'll take a stroll and let him see that if he is thinking of stealing anything to feed his dirty habit it's not happening. It's hard enough dealing with our own criminals in this neighborhood without having to put up with this. God I hope he isn't armed and if he is I bet its illegal......dirty drug fiend. Could happen!!! Anytime we saw white folk in the barrio guess what they were up to. Yup you guessed it Mormans, Jehovahs or engaged in something illegal and if it wasn't Saturday/Sunday before noon it was the illegal kind.
Everyone profiles.
Absolutely. The issue is on HOW you profile. Profiling on skin color is stupidity of a very high order. I truly believe a large majority of Americans believe that - or at least they once did. At the risk of saying it, I'm not sure so many people are of that same belief today.

As one who has preached the Biblical truth that there will be no black, white, yellow, red, or brown sections in heaven for 40+ years, that reality is deeply troubling to me.

And I could preach a whole sermon on the subject, right here and now...but I won't.
 

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I have profiled all of my life. I make snap judgements when I meet people and I have a very high average of being correct. We live on a cul-de-sac and have our mailboxes in a central site.

We had a new neighbor moving in down the street. My wife and I were in the front yard when the mailman came by. I walked down to the mailboxes and the new single white male neighbor met me there. We exchanged hellos and our names.

I got back to our house and my wife asked what the new neighbor was like. I said, "Stay away from him, he's a pervert." She said, "There is no way you can tell that in ten seconds."

He was reported being a peeping tom by a neighbor. He constantly hit on every young wife on the street. He had women running out of his house at night screaming for help. The police were there several times for domestic issues with new girlfriends he met through online dating. It was a relief when he moved away. My wife doesn't question my judgements since then.
 

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I think the discussion here should not be about a binary decision of whether we "profile" or not, but 1) On what basis do we profile? AND 2) What do we do on the basis of different levels of profiling? If we use a model like Coopers "colors" for instance: If we go from White all the way to Red because of skin color, that is an obvious recipe for disaster. Even going from Yellow to Orange has led to behaviors that provoked a confrontation. Think of the Martin/Zimmerman thing.

But if you want to go from White to Yellow based on skin color, "spidey sense," whatever, be my guest. Add a bad neighborhood, a gun and a hoodie, maybe your White or Yellow goes to Orange, as long as the Orange doesn't involve any behaviors on your part that provoke the person being profiled. Maybe your Orange makes you move slowly to a different position and causes you to mentally rehearse your draw. OK.

I also think profiling based on behaviors, especially subtle clues like unnatural eye contact patterns, unnatural movements, etc. should be given more importance than race or appearance.

And profiling alone should never take you to Red. There has to be an imminent threat of grave bodily harm. A guy in a bad neighborhood, wearing a hoodie, with a gun in his belt does not make the range hot.
 
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