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Where should the USA draw the line against Russia?

  • Stop them now by any means necessary

    Votes: 8 9.3%
  • Give them whatever they want so nobody glows in the dark

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Help the Ukrainians carry out an insurgency and bog them down.

    Votes: 41 47.7%
  • Get us out of the UN. None of it is really our business.

    Votes: 37 43.0%
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Zero Hour 23 Feb 2022

It’s begun. Full scale invasion starting with cyber attacks and APC’s accompanied by Armor. I’ve heard reports (unconfirmed) of airborne drops. Sounds a lot like our invasion of Iraq and will probably have similar results. Meaning, they will take the country pretty handily. The problems will come in “winning the peace.” If the Ukrainians are serious about their freedoms, they can start up one hell of an insurgency.

The bigger question is will Putin stop with Ukraine or will he move against the former satellite states of the USSR? Because most of them are now NATO members and an attack on them will trigger an Article 5 response from us. Cold War turns hot. Maybe nuclear? I personally don’t think that Biden has the ummm “testicular fortitude” to go there. But if he cannot, does NATO itself then crater? Because in essence WE are “NATO.”

There’s another wrinkle. It turns out that currently Russia controls the UN Security Council and has effectively neutered any response from the overall organization. Somebody explain to me the wisdom of having The Evil Empire involved in an organization supposedly dedicated to world peace and involved in a leadership role?

Right after the USSR “fell” along with East Germany, the American leadership began singing Kumbayah and welcomed Russia into freedom by letting them inside most of our conventional forces and even deployed the FBI to Moscow to make their police better able to “combat the Russian mafia.” I don’t remember if there was an reciprocal actions. I highly doubt that Putin let us get a good look inside his tanks like we let him into ours. I hope we’re videoing their order of battle because that’s exactly how they will roll across the Fulda Gap and right into Germany.

In the meantime, I’ll bet that with Russia’s tacit approval, China takes Taiwan. So what happens if China and Russia form up as a team? That’s a downright BIBLICALLY scary thought.

ALL of this can be laid right at the feet of WEAK AMERICAN LEADERSHIP. We have the ability to crush both Russia and China economically IF our private energy sector is unleashed. Which Biden and the Democrats will never do. This is because their priorities are American destruction not American preservation.
 

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It is all an interesting conundrum. This is really a crazy oppurtunistic incursion by Russia that is not really supported by the general Russian civilian population.
Russian currency is already beginning to tank. Promised HEAVY sanctions will be devestating for the Russian General population. We are not going to get heavily involved though we will provide various forms of aid. NATO will only get involved to a limited degree. That is their only realistic option.
The longer this land invasion lasts the worse it will be for Russia.
The Ukrainian military are not fresh faced soldiers etc. They are vastly outnumbered in every respect but, they are battle hardened & going to give it the good hard fight. Many Ukranian Mil will die but, many Russian Mil will also. Lots of Ukrainian good/innocent civilians are already dead...more to follow. 😭☠
China will not use this as an opportunity to take Taiwan. In fact they are not super pleased with Russia right now & are taking an official "neutral" stance. A slightly displeased neutral stance.
Heavy sanctions on Russia will have a devestating effect on the Russian civilian population which is not going to make them really happy. A perfect time for a world supported coup.
Various amounts of disinformation are running rampant right now. The ultimate goal of Russsia will be to control all of Ukraine and not to just buffer ther border. Ukraine is a huge world grain breadbasket which would be a fantastic plus for Russia.
We DO have the ability to launch an incredible cyber attack on Russia but, likewise they have the ability to do the exact same to us. Definitely something that we should prepare for as individual citizens. This will NOT lead to WWIII and we will not interject ourselves to any degree that will put Nukes on the table.
Nobody wins that type of war.
So...that is just not going to happen. Even a limited cyber attack on the U.S. combined with a planned U.S. protracted trucker strike/ protest could see us with an increase of emptier store shelves. You might want to keep that in mind.
This really is/was a stupid move on the part of Russia. But, any dictator smells weakness and there is a strong stench of global weakness in the air. And dictators then do what dictators do.
This may be officially over in days or weeks and if it drags on for months then I think Ukraine wins the battle but, possibly not the eventual war?
Ukraine may end up being the Russian Afghanistan but just with a shorter time frame. Russia does not have the support of the majority or the Russian General population on this one.
I apologize for the rambling of jumbled parts of my little diatribe here. Expect a massive exodus of Ukrainian civilian population out of Ukraine. That is already happening. I think they will be taken in willingly by various nations and I don't believe that they will ever want to return.
Any member thoughts welcome and feel free to correct me or educate me.
I am (by no means) any sort of expert. I just "roll" with my gut feelings which are never 100% correct.
Many of you have much more military, war, intelligence, strategy, gaming, etc knowledge than I do. So...all of your thoughts and opinions are welcome.
Please chime in.
Call me wrong on any of the above, no way will I take any offense and I will just learn more and factor it all in. I value your opinions especially how they may or may not affect life on the home front.
Stay Safe & Carry On.
👍
 

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Putin has shown himself to be an irrational actor. Not a stupid one, but a reckless one who is willing to roll the dice with high stakes. If this turns out to be a losing proposition for him, which it very well could, all bets are off.

I'm certainly no expert on foreign policy and my prediction was that he wouldn't invade, so that shows how cloudy my crystal ball is.

These events can gain a momentum all their own and lead to unforeseen consequences.

I'm keeping my gas tank full.
 

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Practically there's not much we can do outside of sanctions.

Hopefully the US reverts to energy independence. It's insane that we're not actively trying to increase our own petroleum, gas and coal production. Unfortunately there are some in Government that will view the coming energy price spike as a godsend to their unreliable green initiatives.

I certainly misread what Putin would do!
 

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He's afraid of being shot in a ditch like Qaddafi or hung on a rope like Saddam. He's paid attention to what happens to bad actors. An "Arab spring" in Russia is what he fears the most. He simply hastens his own demise by attempting to tighten the reins.
 

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We know Putin's goal is to recreate the USSR. He won't stop with the Ukraine and has said as much.

The real question that everyone should ask is how far will Biden go to protect Hunter? No question both the Chinese and the Ukrainians have significant proof of Hunter's moral depravity. So will Joe go all in?

A mad man and a senile father trying to protect his son on opposing sides. Both have nuclear weapons. What could possibly go wrong?
 

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“China will not use this as an opportunity to take Taiwan. In fact they are not super pleased with Russia right now & are taking an official "neutral" stance. A slightly displeased neutral stance.
Heavy sanctions on Russnia will have a devestating effect on the Russian civilian population which is not going to make them really happy.”
Sorry, but that and a couple of your other comments are plain ignorant. Do you think for one second that the Russian and Chinese governments are motivated be any of the same short term considerations that motivate western governments. Both of these places have been preparing their populations for a long time to accept interventions in Ukraine and Taiwan.
Didn’t you hear the speech that Putin gave where he maintained that Ukraine was historically a part of Russia. Have you not heard that Russian media has reported for years that Ukraine oppresses Russian speakers, and that mass graves had been found... classic Russian/Soviet misdirection.
Please tell us what the citizens of these countries can do to influence national policy of these countries? The guy who stood in front of the tank in Tianamin Square doesn’t exist anymore in official Chinese history.
The way things work in other countries is not at all like ours, and only fools compare what we would do with what they will do.
I’m not saying that our government and media is overly ‘pure’ in things like this... you only have to look at how we got into Iraq.
 

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Please post here with educated guesses. Uneducated guesses, personal opinions...etc.
There are zero absolute right or wrong answers at this point.
Only gigantic global level question marks.
I'll take any hunch or guess that turns out to eventually be completely off the mark.
Total speculation may lead to (as of yet) unimagined possibilities & fodder for thought. My biggest concern at this point for us here in this country would be a retaliation cyber attack on multiple fronts.
Have at it.
 

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Line should be an attack on any NATO member state.
Is Putin stupid enough to start WW3?
Does Putin think American and the world are too weak right now coming out of this global pandemic and weakness perception of the White House.
This could be another Afghanistan for Russia.
I say pour aid into Ukraine and let them fight a gurilla war of attrition and bleed Russia dry on money.
Once Russian Moms start seeing body bags coming home thing might change in the Motherland
 

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steves2
I am not at all offended by your comment that you believe some of my thoughts or comments to be ignorant. That is a
real possibility. In fact I'm glad that you posted what you did. That is exactly what I want.
I'll seriously consider your commments with a completely open mind.
When I say "Have at it" - I want members to really Have At It.
Any Member- Feel free to knock the crap out of what I have posted.
I do want members with more savvy on the topic to post and be completely fearless in calling me out where I may be completely wrong.
It is one of the most serious topics that we have posted on the forum.
I have no intention on back and forth bickering or being argumentative.
I am not a global war game strategy expert and certainly not able to get into the respective minds of certain world leaders. Time will tell who may ultimately be right or wrong and I am positive that it probably won't be me.
Carry on.
 

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Putin is, by all indications, a psychopath. Those who reach the top of their particular food chains oftentimes are. What is a psychopath willing to do to achieve particular goals? Hard to say definitively, but using history's examples, the outlook isn't particularly bright right now.
 

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Factually speaking, SAC command went wheels up this morning.

I filled water jugs and the bathtub this morning. AR mags are topped off. The materials for a makeshift shelter are in place. That is what I know.

Speculation, Putin will not stop at the Ukraine. He wants all the former block states and he is going for it. This never was about a border between Russia and NATO.

I believe Putin will launch a premptive nuclear strike against the US and the UK. Sub based strikes will leave only a few moments to counterattack. Biden is too feeble to process and respond in that amount of time. MAD strategically does not work anymore with the current generation of delivery systems our enemies have. First launch wins.

NATO may take out Putin's oil fields. Then the race will be on for the middle east. A race between Russia and Asia for the remaining oil supplies.

China will sit it out until the US is destroyed. They will then take Taiwan.

Gog and Magog. Events are unfolding.
 

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Line should be an attack on any NATO member state.
Is Putin stupid enough to start WW3?
Does Putin think American and the world are too weak right now coming out of this global pandemic and weakness perception of the White House.
This could be another Afghanistan for Russia.
I say pour aid into Ukraine and let them fight a gurilla war of attrition and bleed Russia dry on money.
Once Russian Moms start seeing body bags coming home thing might change in the Motherland
I don't think so.


As for encouraging a guerilla war, think back to Afghanistan - in the long run, how did that help the United States?
 

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There is the bar observation at play too. A fight in a crowded room between drunks seldom limits violence to the two antagonists. Fat Kim and the Iranians may not sit on the sidelines if they sense weakness.

When the dogs are loosed, no telling what will happen.
 

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i don't see this going any further than Ukraine. controlling that country gives Putin the buffer he desires. once he reaches the western border of that country, he's bumping up against Poland, Slovakia, Romania, and Hungary, all NATO countries. encirclement of smaller Russian forces from that area should keep them at bay. and NATO can move troops to that front faster than Moscow can. if they have to, NATO would prefer to fight a war on that line; they don't want a war to get to German and French soil (that's why the French pulled out of the military arm of NATO in the 60's, and just recently re-joined it), and those former Soviet satellites don't want any part of Russian oppression again. Putin's argument that Ukraine always has been part of Russia has a basis of truth. most of the country has been Russian land for 200 years, and parts of it for more than 500 years. but that's just an excuse, a pretext to justify his grab of Ukraine to protect his borders

meanwhile, the Russian markets aren't happy: "The MOEX index plunged as much as 45% before rebounding to trade down 33%, while the RTS index — which is denominated in dollars — was down 38% at 8:25 a.m. ET. The crash wiped about $70 billion off the value of Russia's biggest companies."
 

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Polish people must be thinking here we go again.
i've always been impressed with the Poles since they regained their freedom. they have been one of the staunchest countries about staying tough with Russia. i sometimes tell some of our panty-waisted, molly-coddling people they should look and see what the Poles would do about something; they know what it's like to live under the Soviet jackboot, and are determined to prevent it happening again. i think they'd be willing to fight the Russians on their eastern border to keep them out
 
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