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This question occured to me after reading Ayoob's "In the Gravewst Extreme" and a few other pieces.
Okay, a guy is approaching you and you feel your life is in imminent danger. Now, legally it would be a good thing (also morally perhaps) to slowly retreat, gun aimed, yelling," stay back- move away- I will shoot if you get closer to us." This implies you are trying hard to avoid the shooting, which you are. But several writers have plainly stated that appearing hesitant to shoot, or overwhelmed, invites escalation and further advance/attack. Criminals, I think, do sometimes sense hesitancy or lack of resolve. So, what do you guys think? I am in no sense an expert. I like the idea of retreating if at all possible. I do not want to shoot. But would retreating make a shooting more likely??
Thanks.
rb
 

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I think we have people skills that we develop from birth, and that we rely on them in moments of stress. I don't really think anyone can give you an answer that would be satisfactory, because . . . it's a hypothetical, and we're not really there to absorb all the factors that would go into our decisions vis-a-vis how to respond.
 

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Depends on the BG and other factors! every situation is different every BG is different as to what they will do. Retreating is a must if possible in Missouri, so doing what you are asking is a very big possibility and you have to react accordingly.

Ti.
 

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There strikes me as being a fine line - VERY fine, between acting over hastily - and being too slow. As Erich implies - hard to judge that one as a generalization.

I do tho consider that retreat can be made authoritive as against seeming weak or lacking resolve. With suitable verbalization it should be possible to quickly make it very clear the BG is but milli seconds away from trouble.

Sometimes if things went down real quick this might not even occur of course.

Some will say and I agree up to a point - if the gun is out then almost by default you are preparing to shoot, very soon. Prior to that retreat options would be hopefully assessed and acted on - which then leaves us what I take to be your main retreat description.

The ''final fractions of time'' if you will - and again I reiterate - the manner in which this is done could radically affect a BG. A whimpy trembling and cowering backing away with gun - will not impress a bad guy much - a shouted series of invective laden commands could well prove much more effective - giving a small bonus of thinking time even.

Just a quick $/50 for now anyways.
 

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Erich said:
I think we have people skills that we develop from birth, and that we rely on them in moments of stress. I don't really think anyone can give you an answer that would be satisfactory, because . . . it's a hypothetical, and we're not really there to absorb all the factors that would go into our decisions vis-a-vis how to respond.
Agree. Well said. Sure, an automated response is a good thing and possible when you're talking about "I'm on go. If he raises his hands, I won't shoot to defend myself, but if he grabs for something under his coat I will" (just an example). However, it breaks down I think if you try to involve all possible factors in a situation. I'd just stick with knowing that you have to go when you are in immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of ... etc.

Best,
Jon
 

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A controlled , commanding voice, should let the BG know your training and resolve to carry thru with your defense. Police officers veralize alot, and while it doesn't seem to always work, atleast it puts the BG on the spot instead of the officer.
 

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if you yank it out of it's holster it better go BOOM!!!
That's pretty much the law in most states. If you go waving it around it's called brandishing.

AFS
 

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chiefs-special-guy said:
This question occured to me after reading Ayoob's "In the Gravewst Extreme" and a few other pieces.
Okay, a guy is approaching you and you feel your life is in imminent danger. Now, legally it would be a good thing (also morally perhaps) to slowly retreat, gun aimed, yelling," stay back- move away- I will shoot if you get closer to us." This implies you are trying hard to avoid the shooting, which you are. But several writers have plainly stated that appearing hesitant to shoot, or overwhelmed, invites escalation and further advance/attack. Criminals, I think, do sometimes sense hesitancy or lack of resolve. So, what do you guys think? I am in no sense an expert. I like the idea of retreating if at all possible. I do not want to shoot. But would retreating make a shooting more likely??
Thanks.
rb
There's a difference between "avoiding" and "retreating" and I think you may beconfusing the two. If you can cross to the other side, take another route because of an impending threat, that's avoiding. If you are in fear for your life and you draw a firearm, the BG is either taking off, or he's crazy (high, drunk, stupid or all three) and he's coming for you. Then you've got to engage him. In your scenario you used the words "imminent danger." If you use the word "immanent" this means he's too close and things are moving too quickly to retreat. So you don't. You stand your ground, or look for cover if possible, and do what you have to do.

Someone on another board said that Ayoob may be a bit overboard in the area of caution. The other thing to remember is that civilian shootings are much different than police shootings, and it's the police shootings that are always tried in the press, so that we are led to believe that if you ever shoot anyone you're going to be in trouble and tried in the press too.

Unless a person hangs around with bad people, or in bad places and is a knucklehead, in the rare instance he has to shoot, it's likely to go well for him. There will be negative consequences probably, but they'll pass. By these I mean: very strong and troubling emotions ranging from anger to giddiness to joy at being alive; rejection by some of your family and friends who will morally equivocate; possibly some legal expenses or even a lawsuit.

Know your state's laws and follow them best you can.

Remember too that BG's who do this kind of street crime are often high on several substances and so they can't hear your commands. You must speak loudly, authoritatively and repeat yourself (for as long as you can before you have to shoot). If he's not high, there's also the stress factor. In great stress BG's get tunnel vision, and auditory exclusion just like GG's do. So again, you have to be loud, authoritative and possibly have to repeat.
 

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In some states you have a duty to retreat, others don't require you to do so. This being the case, some people intitial response is mandated. For those not required to retreat, I still don't think it's a bad idea if it's safe to do so. Verbalization is also critical. If the witnesses see you move away from the other guy while giving him clear verbal commands to "stop" or "back-off" it's going to look better for you when the smoke clears.

That said, I'm not saying to stand there and yell at the guy all day, if he's advancing on you, step back and off-line giving continuous, loud verbal commands as you draw you weapon, if he is still advancing after you've presented your weapon, shoot.
 

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chiefs-special-guy said:
This question occured to me after reading Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme" and a few other pieces.
Okay, a guy is approaching you and you feel your life is in imminent danger. Now, legally it would be a good thing (also morally perhaps) to slowly retreat, gun aimed, yelling,"stay back- move away- I will shoot if you get closer to us. " This implies you are trying hard to avoid the shooting, which you are. But several writers have plainly stated that appearing hesitant to shoot, or overwhelmed, invites escalation and further advance/attack. Criminals, I think, do sometimes sense hesitancy or lack of resolve. So, what do you guys think? ...would retreating make a shooting more likely??
Some excellent replies here, especially from P95 and Jarhead...

If you beg the BG to, "Pweeeeze stop! I weally don't wanna hurt you....PWEEZE!!" in a Micheal Jackson voice while holding your weapon like a feeble old lady, then yeah, the turd will assume you are a :sheep: and very likely continue/escalate the attack. If, however, you BARK at him, "BACK OFF, SCUMBAG!!!" in your best Senior Drill Instructor Gunnery Sergeant Hartman :drillsergeant: :aargh4: voice while assuming a solid Weaver stance :shootin: ; they will probably back off, unless they are insane/drugged/suicidal.

Both your body language and your verbalization MUST be congruent, with body language being the more important of the two!! If your body language leaves NO doubt that the BG's next forward step will be met with :badguy: , I think what you say shouldn't matter so much, as far as inviting further attack.

Verbal commands to the BG does several things.
- It puts you back in control of the confrontation. Once their hostile intentions become clear, the sooner this happens, the better.
- It clearly expresses to the BG and any witnesses what actions must be taken IMMEDIATELY to prevent said BG from becoming ambient temperature
- If you are forced to fire, any witnesses will be able to testify that you gave them plenty of opportunity to end the confrontation bloodlessly, yet they chose to attack you anyway.

As long as you body language shows that you are willing and able to kill them if they don't comply with you orders, I don't see how articulating to the turd your desire to peacefully end the violence that *they* started would invite further escalation.

Any fool who thinks someone yelling "Stay back!! Move away...I will shoot if you get closer" while displaying THIS kind of body language...



...fully deserves whatever fate that awaits them should they choose to see her words as a sign of hesitation to pull the trigger.
 

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Here in Minnesota you must retreat if retreat is available, and you can do so safely. If you don't at least try you better be able to prove it wasn't an option available to you.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Friends-
I thank everyone for their views.
I have always felt I wished to retreat if at all possible. I realize some jurisdictions require it. I also do not want to shoot anyone except as an absolute last resort. My only real concern was whether in a perverse way retreating encouraged escalation. The view appears to be that one retreats while taking control of the situation, using forceful commands, and so on. Thus,retreat in a nonescalating manner, one might say. That is certainly my intention. I hope I do not have to put this to the test.
Happy Holidays/Merry Christmas to all.
rb:smiley2:
 

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chiefs-special-guy said:
This question occured to me after reading Ayoob's "In the Gravewst Extreme" and a few other pieces.
Okay, a guy is approaching you and you feel your life is in imminent danger. Now, legally it would be a good thing (also morally perhaps) to slowly retreat, gun aimed, yelling," stay back- move away- I will shoot if you get closer to us." This implies you are trying hard to avoid the shooting, which you are. But several writers have plainly stated that appearing hesitant to shoot, or overwhelmed, invites escalation and further advance/attack. Criminals, I think, do sometimes sense hesitancy or lack of resolve. So, what do you guys think? I am in no sense an expert. I like the idea of retreating if at all possible. I do not want to shoot. But would retreating make a shooting more likely??
Thanks.
rb
IMHO it depends on how much danger YOU or and Innocent who may be involved feel you're in.
1. Does the Assailant have or is brandishing a weapon? (bat, knife, gun, etc)
2. How far has the event escillated to? (has HE, the BG taken swings, thrusts, etc toward you, or your innocent)
3. What are the conditions in your surroundings? ( night, day, crowded area, alone, limited backstop or escape route)
4. Are YOU mentally ready to defend yourself, to the point of taking a life? Is the BG DETERMINED to do bodily harm to YOU or an INNOCENT within your immediate area?
IMHO ALL these factors MUST be determined and evaluated within miliseconds or a very short time.
Training in my past has taught me to get out of the area ASAP.. Get the innocent (or Client as I was taught) aways and out of danger.
Engagement is the very last option, BUT if the BG persists to engage, then it's time to take him down, utilizing as much force as needed to end the event.
When we CCW, we're taking on a huge responsibility to ourselves and the people who are within our company. Being mentally prepared is a HUGE factor in any altercation. Being determined to come on top of the situation is paramount. LOUD commands are a HUGE deterent, not to mention the fact that people around you (who can testify as witnesses on your behalf) know that you're attempting to end the event in a safe and sane manner.

Maybe some good reading here in the links below. Might help to better train ourselves if and when the event ever comes.

http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?query=bodyguard+techniques&invocationType=spelling&itaq=0.2.1.FszDBKH7bAB&itaq=1.0.1.bodyguard+techniques&itaq=2.1.1.
 

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Means, Intent, and Opportunity?

When I took the course required for a concealed carry permit here in Oregon the issue of "When can you use lethal force"? - was done by the local county district attorney, who was a CCW carrier himself.

The points he made were that, in order for you to use lethal force, you would have to determine that your alleged attacker had to have the means, intent, and opportunity to do you serious harm. Further, should you have to defend yourself in court, you would have to prove that all three conditions were present in order for you to legally use lethal force. He also strongly stated the old aphormism, it is better to be tried by twelve than carried by six a number of times.

If you decide to pull the trigger the assessment of all conditions are in place woud have to be made in a matter of seconds, under extreme pressure, and with 100% certitude that the conditions were met. Not easy! But then I suppose it is not meant to be an easy decision.:confused:
 

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Another consideration is that by virtue of having drawn down upon someone prematurely, you may well give them the opportunity of shooting you and claiming self defense.
If they have displayed a weapon and acted in a menacing way, then employ deadly force in the defense of your life.
If they have not done so, keep it in the holster and RUN AWAY.

Real engagements are usually over pretty quickly. If you draw down, they'll do one of three things:
1.Freeze - At this point I would still shoot them IF they were armed and pointing a weapon at me. If they dropped the weapon and surrendered, a legal right to employ lethal force no longer exists. Call 911 (or have a bystander do so) AND BE SURE TO ADVISE THE DISPATCHER THAT YOU ARE ARMED AND HOLDING YOUR ATTACKER AT GUNPOINT. Otherwise, responding officers will be unable to tell you from the BG, and you might just get shot. Also, stay behind cover and KEEP YOUR DISTANCE.
2. Attack - Here you must engage without ANY hesitation.
3. Run - If this happens, let 'em go. Otherwise, some wannabe hero in the DA's office might just make a vertical career move at your expense.
 
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