[Fjolnirsson]

Re:Loss Prevention stops.....

Something I've been thinking about lately. I used to work as Loss Prevention for Long's drugs, and later, Burlington Coat Factory. I worked with some great people, but I did meet my share of idiots who wouldn't know a bad stop if it hit them upside the head. Since I've been CCWing, I've found myself wondering how I would respond to some yahoo laying hands on me. I've caught the wally world guy following me lately, and I know I haven't stolen anything. I mean, if I walk out, and the guy tells me to stop, I can simply reply, "no thank you", and keep going. But what if he's an idiot, and charges out at me or lays hands on me? It could get real ugly from there. In public, I figure someone lays hands on me, it's go time if my daughter and wife are with me. Reason being, if I go down, they could be harmed. It's causing me a bit of worry, since I don't want to shoot anybody I don't have to, but I'd hate to anticipate it being this guy, and fail to react appropriately in case of an attack.
Just some late night musing. any thoughts on this? Anybody else concerned?
Maybe it's just too many banana daquiris.... :banana:

 

[P95Carry]

Maybe it's just too many banana daquiris....

Yep - you may have OD'd on those Fjol :biggrin:

True tho - someone aggressively laying hands on you is not a good situation. However as always I think - these situations need assessed, each on their own merits, demerits.

There is hostile laying on of hands and pure threatening laying on. The latter if extreme enough could lead to an escalation but then hey - you surely need to see a level of implied or actual lethal force to be able to react in kind.

I think much goes back to a suitable condition yellow - meaning being aware of any threat in good time - then hopefully enough thinking time to assess threat level. I for one am pretty concerned over premature reaction tho again there is the opposite of that - failure to react quick enough!!

I think you'll be OK if you keep well alert - and also don't regard laying on of hands as perforce, a lethal threat. Judgement is critical - and only you can achieve that.

 

[Bud White]

As Chris said ya need to see each case for a seprate ase ive never been bother by the people so cant say but i sure dont like being grabbed either

 

[Miggy]

I think you have found a lousy Loss Prevention Officer that is either new on the job and unexperienced or just somebody who wants to be a cop and took his training from watching too much TV. There is no excuse for his behavior, specially in places like WalMart where they have enough surveillance gear to follow you all the way home.

Play it smart. If the guy orders you to stop, do so. If he accuses you of shoplifting and wants to check you out, refuse and go on the counterattack by LOUDLY requesting the presence of the store manager and the police and that a report must be taken by both manager and the store head of security. Infrom the manager and the head of security that you will only be searched in front of a Police Officer so he can be witness and make a report of the events. Do not move from the spot (which luckily will be right at the store's entrance creating a mayor scene and a couple os cameras) and wait for their decission. They will either let you go or get the people above mentioned which will give you a nice paper trail in case you want to make a bigger stink with Wally World headquarters (which I would reccomend you to do the second you get home since most stores do not file their paperwork on the day's events until the end of the day/shift and make sure you get a file number from the police too). The worse they could do is let you go but trespass you and ban you from the store to which you could still make a bigger stink to Wally World headquarters asking why are you gettting treated the way they do when you are a law abading and loyal customer of WalMart.

The other way you could do this is, if you see that you are being followed, is to make a beeline for the manager's office and demand to see him inmedialety. Once he shows up, get somewhat (not too much ) loud and upset and demand an explanation why are you being followed like some sort of criminal. Take names, take time of events and details, make sure they see you doing that. I can almost bet you they will backpedal at the speed of lawsuits.

I understand that corporations have the right to make sure they do not suffer losses but there is no excuse for a Loss Prevention Officer to behave like a bird dog after a regular customer.

 

[ExSoldier]

Loss Prevention in South Florida

I think you have found a lousy Loss Prevention Officer that is either new on the job and unexperienced or just somebody who wants to be a cop and took his training from watching too much TV. There is no excuse for his behavior, specially in places like WalMart where they have enough surveillance gear to follow you all the way home.

Play it smart. If the guy orders you to stop, do so. If he accuses you of shoplifting and wants to check you out, refuse and go on the counterattack by LOUDLY requesting the presence of the store manager and the police and that a report must be taken by both manager and the store head of security. Infrom the manager and the head of security that you will only be searched in front of a Police Officer so he can be witness and make a report of the events. Do not move from the spot (which luckily will be right at the store's entrance creating a mayor scene and a couple os cameras) and wait for their decission. They will either let you go or get the people above mentioned which will give you a nice paper trail in case you want to make a bigger stink with Wally World headquarters (which I would reccomend you to do the second you get home since most stores do not file their paperwork on the day's events until the end of the day/shift and make sure you get a file number from the police too). The worse they could do is let you go but trespass you and ban you from the store to which you could still make a bigger stink to Wally World headquarters asking why are you gettting treated the way they do when you are a law abading and loyal customer of WalMart.

The other way you could do this is, if you see that you are being followed, is to make a beeline for the manager's office and demand to see him inmedialety. Once he shows up, get somewhat (not too much ) loud and upset and demand an explanation why are you being followed like some sort of criminal. Take names, take time of events and details, make sure they see you doing that. I can almost bet you they will backpedal at the speed of lawsuits.

I understand that corporations have the right to make sure they do not suffer losses but there is no excuse for a Loss Prevention Officer to behave like a bird dog after a regular customer.

I spent a lot of years in loss prevention, eventually working my up to supervisory roles. Worked for mostly the upscale big dept stores like Burdines, Macy's, Sacs 5th Ave, etc. Depending on the company, policy can range from handcuffing a "suspect" and escorting them to the security office to making an "on-the-spot" determination that the suspect is a media nightmare and turn him or her loose. Burdines simply will NOT arrest or detain anybody over the age of 65. Consequently most pro thieves use really old folks to steal there. About 20 years ago, I detained this really O-L-D lady trying to steal a wrapped package of cut crystal glassware. It was like she was moving in slow motion. I waited for her to exit the store then I stopped her and politely asked her to come with me. She said nothing. Held up one finger ("wait?") and ever so slowly reached into her HUGE purse and withdrew about a 10" Butcher Knife which she proceeded to draw back into a stabbing motion at the rate of about one inch of movement per second or two. Tortoise school of knife combat. She was really trying to kill me in slo-mo! I snatched the blade out of her hand so fast she stood there looking at her empty hand as if to say to herself...."HUH?, WTF?" I stood there shaking the knife at her and scolding her What's wrong with you...you could hurt yourself with this!!! Then it hit me what she'd been calmly trying to do. She had zero ID and spoke no English. Part of a ring of pros from Columbia. I wanted to press charges, but the policy kicked in and they kicked her loose. She looked at me as she left, gave a little smile and blew me a kiss.

 

[QKShooter]

If I'm Leaving A Store

If I'm leaving a store & a store employee or store security wants to know if I stole something or thinks that I might have stolen something & I'm carrying my firearm then I'm going to go back into the business and calmly request that a police officer be present & then they can check me if they want to. For me...it's call the police or forget putting your hands on me.
I'm not going to make waves. Boo boos do happen.
That's just me personally...but, I'd absolutely want a police officer there on the scene.

 

[Rob72]

and also don't regard laying on of hands as perforce, a lethal threat.

Laying on of hands is: 1) Assault & battery, 2) False arrest. To not be the first, the LPO must identify himself; to not be the second, he must verbally identify himself, and state his intentions. Without a uniform and/or declaration of intent, grabbing someone , in this day and age, is lethally threatening.

"Hey, you, stop!", and grabbing my shoulder is going to draw a hold-break and a throat jab from me, and a LOUD, "Back off!".

Miggy and QK are 100% right, but if Deputy Fife assaults you, you are certainly free to mace and strike him into submission; then you can call PD on your cell phone. If anyone else was foolish enough to come charging to subdue you, a hand up, and loud, "I'm calling the cops!" should diminish their fervor.

 

[P95Carry]

Good point QK re carry and having cop present.

I tend to think that on the assumption we have been mistakenly targeted, then provided we are ourselves not in any great rush - the longer the process takes the more egg they have on face and thus perhaps the keener they will be to see us leave and not filing suit :smile: This mainly I should add, involving a flagrently and overtly ''hostile'' stop.

Only stop I ever had was at WallyWorld when the bleeper bleeped - which was of course simply that an item had not been swiped effectively. Oldish guy came up to me - I'd stopped anyways at the bleep - checked my receipt - got it swiped and off I went. No aggravation at all and that does not bother me at all.

 

[Scott]

Fjolnirsson,

Maybe you are printing and he is trying to figure out what that bulge is?

Otherwise...

So the LP guy goes hands on without a verbal warning? That would go very badly. Since he would be hands on I wouldn't likely draw my gun initially.

If he verbally challenged me then I would stop to see what his problem was. If he wanted to search my person the police will be present. Also I will not leave the spot I'm standing on. If they want to check my bag past a checkout counter. Whatever. Like Chris I've had the beepy thing go off because the tag wasn't deactivated. No biggie.

-Scott-

 

[Fjolnirsson]

Lots of good thoughts here(as always), essentially echoing thoughts I have had. Seems like my best bet is as always, to maintain my good Yellow status and go about my day.
The guy is obviously poorly trained. I spotted him the day the store opened for business, following folks around, and he hasn't improved. I've learned how not to print now, so that isn't it. I think the reason he's following me is that at first glance, I fit in with the common criminal subclass around here. Caucasian, longer hair(I've been letting it grow out), and usually jeans or bdus with tshirts and flannel. Of course, it's western oregon, and rural. That describes 95% of the male population,lol.
Ah, well. I'm glad I tossed this idea out there. Good to see I'm not alone in my thinking.

 

[rocky]

I've "made" a few loss prevention folks. They tend to follow me once in a while too. Wouldn't go force on force unless I really need to. The pistol may become exposed while gettting physical and then ya got more problems. Lots of good suggestions here.

 

[Betty]

I've been followed several times in different stores. I guess a lot of shoplifters are young and female, and so I match the profile. Oh, and I have a big purse. I do my best to not act suspicious so I don't get followed, but it sometimes happens anyway.

I've also caught a shoplifter when working at my dad's store while I was in high school. The guy was a known klepto and was trying to steal light bulbs. Most of the time it's not hard watching somebody without being spotted, whether you're peering at them between merchandise displays or acting like another customer.

I won't be herded into a back room. I'll ask the person what exactly he supposedly saw me take and where I supposedly put it. If he can't give me a clear answer, he didn't see anything and had no right to stop me. If he says I supposedly shoved whatever down in my coat, I'll open my coat up. I will not allow him to root through my purse and I will not permit him to touch me - I'll request a real officer on the scene to handle that. He'll discover I didn't take a thing, and I'll be firm about demanding an apology. I don't like public humiliation, and it's only proper that the person who stopped me apologize.

 

[BlueLion]

You sound a bit anxious to plug some one. First of all I have been loss prevention also and if the Local Wal Mart guy pulls me for no reason I will just go with the flow and hope they keep me . I will also let them know that I am legally armed and ask for police. The reason I stopped doing this was because most are idiots and are either highschool kids or people who never qualified for the service or something and are just cocky. Follow me I say I have done nothing. I will just let my lawyers chew on you and Wal Mart. However, if you were rushed by these guys and you pulled out and fired. Jody will definitely get your girl....

 

[Sheldon J]

First of all he/she has no rights to lay hands on you unless you authorize them too, and was stated earlier it is assault if they touch you. That is why their job is to observe, report, and call 911 and let the police do their job, any thing is else is outside their authority. On the other hand if they do stop you and ask permishion to search you, you could reply not in public, then in private disclose you are licensed and are carying and to keep their inexpierenced hands off your expensive, more than they make in a month gun or you and your lawyer will own them and the store Then stare them right in the eyes and smile nicely, saying good by and leave.

 

[LPguy]

I'll set your minds at ease on this one:

I spent 9 years in Loss prevention....hence the name LPguy.

First of all, a well trained LP will not make a stop unless he or she has the following.

you have been seen entering a department

selected merchandise

concealed merchandise

bypass all points of purchase

lastly.....exited the store without making proper payment

Only a rookie will make the mistakes described by what I have seen in these posts. A well trained and experienced veteran will not be seen until he/she stops you on the sidewalk. If he/she does....you're guilty. Period. Anybody else isn't worth your time unless he/she stops you without reason. This is called a "bad stop" or in some circles a "bad grab"

If you are being followed, ask yourself the following:

Is my CCW visible? Am I dressed inappropriately for the weather in order to conceal my weapon? Am I carrying a large handbag? Or are you giving off other signs that a rookie LP might think is out of the ordinary......

Rule of thumb to follow if you are stopped without reason...

COOPERATE! if you make a move for your weapon.....the only loser will be...YOU.

If you cooperate and show you have nothing...the loser will be the fool who stopped you without a valid reason.

Stay safe and keep your hand off your CCW until you have valid reason. Pulling a CCW on an LP will land you in jail faster than you can say "bad stop"

Mike

 

[Fjolnirsson]

You sound a bit anxious to plug some one.

No, trust me, I'll go out of my way to avoid having to "plug someone". See, I own my home. Mortgage is paid off. All I owe are the King's taxes on it. I was merely voicing a concern, and asking what others think.
As for what I could be doing to make the LP follow me, I've covered that already. The thieves in my area are poor and white. I'm poor and white. The LP guy is obviously poorly trained.
I'm definitely not printing. Well, perhaps my other gun, but I hope that wouldn't cause him to follow me around the store. :silly:

The reason I stopped doing this was because most are idiots and are either highschool kids or people who never qualified for the service or something and are just cocky.

Same reason I got out. And , exactly the reason I worry.

 

[Phil Elmore]

I don't think any situation in which someone puts their hands on you without permission, authority, or provocation necessarily must "get ugly," nor would it escalate automatically to some sort of finale-in-Reservoir-Dogs shootout. People will take as much power over you as you let them; half of all authority is that authority a given person assumes for himself. If you know your boundaries and assert them, you'll be fine. That means if someone actually reached out and put a hand on you, you'd shake them off and state, without anger, "Don't touch me." You'd go from there.

I might not be the person to be preaching about reasonable responses to minor nuisances tonight, though. Perhaps a few weeks on decaf...

 

[ExSoldier]

Betty, consider it a fact of life, that if a young man or a group of similarly dressed young men, all whispering quietly into their shopping bags or lapels.... is following YOU all over a store......it has NOTHING to do with their job except as an excuse.

LPGuy Nailed it with this set of criteria:

I spent 9 years in Loss prevention....hence the name LPguy.

First of all, a well trained LP will not make a stop unless he or she has the following.

you have been seen entering a department

selected merchandise

concealed merchandise

bypass all points of purchase

lastly.....exited the store without making proper payment

When you testify in court, these are the salient points that will be asked by the prosecution. That just about sews up the case. The only thing the defense can offer from this point on amounts to mitigating circumstances....

 

[CLASS3NH]

LP is EXACTLY CORRECT :biggrin:
If you're leaving the store, and somebody places their hands on you (AE Loss Prevention) you have the right to file a Assault charge. They have absolutly NO right to touch you in any manner. They DO have the right to stand in front of you, or around you, in an attempt to detain you. They must clearly identify themselves to you, show you and ID and attempt to detain in that manner. If you continue to enter your vehicle, they may stand behind the vehicle and attempt to detain you in that manner as well. Do NOT attempt to drive over them, as the yahoo may lay on the ground, and hope you'll bring him a huge lawsuit and Workers' Comp case. :biggrin:
Best thing is to let the Local PD arrive and hash it out. ESPECIALLY if you're innocent of any charge. THEY have to prove that you're guilty. If they have surveillance cameras, you CAN require them to show you where the theft occurred, and if it was really you.
Personally, I'd keep walking ESPECIALLY if you have nothing to hide. :biggrin:

 

[GoodSamaritan]

Good topic. Actually this has been gone over once before.

http://www.combatcarry.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2856&highlight=loss+prevention

I have no fear of a true professional because, I have no reason for them to stop me. However some newb with a power trip scares the daylights out of me. I have come to the conclusion, that I would be polite and firm about refusing to be searched unless the police are present. In fact I will be the first one to call. I refuse to be led to some office, out of sight of the general public. I want witnesses.