Sounds like he did okay to me. Taking a possible threat seriously and keeping both potential BG's in sight is a plus. Of course no one can say for sure what they would do in a situation like that unless it presents itself, but keeping at least a basic description of the two and their vehicle may have helped LE in case they did something later on.
REAL - from another forum
Got this from one of the forums I frequent. All in all I think the guy did okay with how he dealt with the situation.
10 different people in same situation would have had 10 different ways they handled it.
I probably would have used different verbal skills than he did - but still think he did okay.
What do you think? His story follows:
=============================
Let me set the stage here, then tell you how the whole thing went down, then I will swiftly move to lessons learned.
My wife, two kids, and I had traveled to an unfamiliar area for an event of the weekend. On the way home we stopped for a late dinner. Well, something apparently didn't agree with my wife because on the highway on the way home she stated she needed to make a "bio - stop"….. urgently. I punched into the navigation "Find point of interest near me- Gas Station". Found one off the next ramp and .5 miles down the road. I pulled in at the front and the wife beat a hasty path for the restroom inside. Kids are in the back seat watching a movie. Windows are tinted in the rear.
I take note as a truck pulls up on my passenger side with two occupants. The passenger gets out and walks around the front and starts to come down between the two of us parked there. Gets about halfway down the fender and says "Oh, S&%t! You have kids in there" as he can now see through to the back from the windshield. He looks at me and says that he and his friend need $20 for gas. I yell back through the closed window that I can't help him. He motions the "Wait one minute" finger and starts around my hood toward the driver side. I immediately step out of my car and shut my door, take a big step to my left and a little forward so I can see the driver of the other car as well as this now approaching individual. As he gets to the corner of my car and within 5 or 7 feet of me, I put my hand up and clearly stated "STOP". He did so. He said they just needed $20. I said again that I could not help him. He moved to take a step forward saying something about they needed money. I placed my thumb up under my shirt and over the top of my Glock 22 that was IWB. The guy immediately took notice of my new posture. I informed him that if he took one more step toward me that I was going to defend myself and kids. He froze for a second, evaluated me and the situation, looked at his buddy, and said "Hey man, I am sorry, we just needed some cash for gas, I'll go look elsewhere." He made a wide circle around me and walked off to a different parking lot that was next door.
I stepped to the front of my car and placed my back against the store wall so I could see my kids in the car (who were freaking out) as well as be between the other car and my wife if she came out the door. The driver of the car made one final plea for the $20. I stated that if he got out of his car I would consider it an additional threat. He stayed in his car and after a moment drove off to find his buddy. My wife came out of the store in somewhat of a panic as my daughter was texting her the whole time. She and I got in the car and got out of there. Enter: Adrenaline dump.
After thoughts......
Number one, I am sure many of you have noticed by now no mention of me calling the cops. The thought never entered my mind. Not sure why. Recalling the story now, I have little memory of what either guy looked like and can barely remember even a loose description on the truck.
Secondly, I gave no instructions to my kids. I should have told them to lock the door when I got out, or call the cops, or stay in the car.
Third, never get off a highway late at night in unfamiliar territory.
Finally, I will note that for years my wife has questioned my desired to carry a concealed weapon. She has called it "paranoid", "inappropriate", even "embarrassing" and "macho". Similar sentiments have been echoed by her mother. During these years I have quietly gone about my business, discretely carrying whatever pistol I might have owned at the time, enduring the comments, simply stating to them both that while the world they live in is peaceful and beautiful, it is fictitious. The real world contains people that will harm you or worse for $20 and that every night when I lay my head down on my pillow I thank God that I have had to put up with these comments, that I have never had to prove them wrong, for it is not an "I told you so" I am interested in. I didn't have to say it, in fact I never thought it. Both seem to understand that things could have turned out worse and both appreciate the fact that I was able to protect our kids and get everyone home OK. I won't say they support my way of thinking, but I certainly think they see my point of view.
10 different people in same situation would have had 10 different ways they handled it.
I probably would have used different verbal skills than he did - but still think he did okay.
What do you think? His story follows:
=============================
Let me set the stage here, then tell you how the whole thing went down, then I will swiftly move to lessons learned.
My wife, two kids, and I had traveled to an unfamiliar area for an event of the weekend. On the way home we stopped for a late dinner. Well, something apparently didn't agree with my wife because on the highway on the way home she stated she needed to make a "bio - stop"….. urgently. I punched into the navigation "Find point of interest near me- Gas Station". Found one off the next ramp and .5 miles down the road. I pulled in at the front and the wife beat a hasty path for the restroom inside. Kids are in the back seat watching a movie. Windows are tinted in the rear.
I take note as a truck pulls up on my passenger side with two occupants. The passenger gets out and walks around the front and starts to come down between the two of us parked there. Gets about halfway down the fender and says "Oh, S&%t! You have kids in there" as he can now see through to the back from the windshield. He looks at me and says that he and his friend need $20 for gas. I yell back through the closed window that I can't help him. He motions the "Wait one minute" finger and starts around my hood toward the driver side. I immediately step out of my car and shut my door, take a big step to my left and a little forward so I can see the driver of the other car as well as this now approaching individual. As he gets to the corner of my car and within 5 or 7 feet of me, I put my hand up and clearly stated "STOP". He did so. He said they just needed $20. I said again that I could not help him. He moved to take a step forward saying something about they needed money. I placed my thumb up under my shirt and over the top of my Glock 22 that was IWB. The guy immediately took notice of my new posture. I informed him that if he took one more step toward me that I was going to defend myself and kids. He froze for a second, evaluated me and the situation, looked at his buddy, and said "Hey man, I am sorry, we just needed some cash for gas, I'll go look elsewhere." He made a wide circle around me and walked off to a different parking lot that was next door.
I stepped to the front of my car and placed my back against the store wall so I could see my kids in the car (who were freaking out) as well as be between the other car and my wife if she came out the door. The driver of the car made one final plea for the $20. I stated that if he got out of his car I would consider it an additional threat. He stayed in his car and after a moment drove off to find his buddy. My wife came out of the store in somewhat of a panic as my daughter was texting her the whole time. She and I got in the car and got out of there. Enter: Adrenaline dump.
After thoughts......
Number one, I am sure many of you have noticed by now no mention of me calling the cops. The thought never entered my mind. Not sure why. Recalling the story now, I have little memory of what either guy looked like and can barely remember even a loose description on the truck.
Secondly, I gave no instructions to my kids. I should have told them to lock the door when I got out, or call the cops, or stay in the car.
Third, never get off a highway late at night in unfamiliar territory.
Finally, I will note that for years my wife has questioned my desired to carry a concealed weapon. She has called it "paranoid", "inappropriate", even "embarrassing" and "macho". Similar sentiments have been echoed by her mother. During these years I have quietly gone about my business, discretely carrying whatever pistol I might have owned at the time, enduring the comments, simply stating to them both that while the world they live in is peaceful and beautiful, it is fictitious. The real world contains people that will harm you or worse for $20 and that every night when I lay my head down on my pillow I thank God that I have had to put up with these comments, that I have never had to prove them wrong, for it is not an "I told you so" I am interested in. I didn't have to say it, in fact I never thought it. Both seem to understand that things could have turned out worse and both appreciate the fact that I was able to protect our kids and get everyone home OK. I won't say they support my way of thinking, but I certainly think they see my point of view.
1 - 20 of 40 Posts
He should not have gotten out of the car in the first place. Nothing he could do about his wife needing to do her business. He would have been better off staying in the car and telling the guy to get lost through the window. If the guy didn't leave then a call to 911 would be in order, hopefully getting the guy going on his way before the wife made it out of her pit stop.
If he had to move the car to get away from the two guys, he could always call his wife on her cell phone and tell her to stay in the store till he could drive back by and pick her up when some distance was made between the car and the two guys. Do I like the idea of leaving the wife in the store, nope, but better than me getting out of the car and leaving my kid inside with the possibility of me bleeding out or whatever in the parking lot.
If he had to move the car to get away from the two guys, he could always call his wife on her cell phone and tell her to stay in the store till he could drive back by and pick her up when some distance was made between the car and the two guys. Do I like the idea of leaving the wife in the store, nope, but better than me getting out of the car and leaving my kid inside with the possibility of me bleeding out or whatever in the parking lot.
This story is just like a thousand others. Criminals are looking for victims not opponents. Being armed and ready to defend the family made all the difference.
I don't think I would have gotten out of the car. Also it was a good job by the kid texting mom. Keeping mom in the bathroom until the bad guys cleared out might have been a good idea.
ETA: Oops I'm a slow typer. +1 to Farronwolf.
I don't think I would have gotten out of the car. Also it was a good job by the kid texting mom. Keeping mom in the bathroom until the bad guys cleared out might have been a good idea.
ETA: Oops I'm a slow typer. +1 to Farronwolf.
I agree that you handled it well, excellent SA, and I also think that you should have told your kids to lock up after you exited the car (which was smart IMO, putting distance between you, the BGs and your kids!). I get the same comments from my wife btw, rather heatedly sometimes.
The comment; "Oh, S&%t! You have kids in there" to me is a big tip that they were up to no good - if honest and not wanting trouble - kids being there should have had no bearing on his intentions.
Also: of course everyone will have their own opinion but mine in this is I definitely would have gotten out of my vehicle - I'd have felt trapped and restricted inside - I can make my point of "Don't mess with me" better standing outside of vehicle.
If I had my wits about me I'd have locked the doors and told one of the kids to call 911 or text Mom to call 911.
Also: of course everyone will have their own opinion but mine in this is I definitely would have gotten out of my vehicle - I'd have felt trapped and restricted inside - I can make my point of "Don't mess with me" better standing outside of vehicle.
If I had my wits about me I'd have locked the doors and told one of the kids to call 911 or text Mom to call 911.
All my training tells me to get out of the car. It is a coffin.
I think he did well, sometimes the stress does things with your mind, the tunnel vision could definitely made it difficult or impossible to describe the people or the truck if he didn't know how to deal with it.
I think he did well, sometimes the stress does things with your mind, the tunnel vision could definitely made it difficult or impossible to describe the people or the truck if he didn't know how to deal with it.
I had 3 kids walk up and stick a gun through my window to my chest 18 years ago. It took all of about 3 seconds in broad daylight in front a packed glass front store with the cashiers being about 10 feet away for them to cover the distance and catch me. My SA sucked at the time.
A car is a coffin. Get out if you can or move away from the situation in the car if you can. The last place you want to be is in the car IMO. Adding kids to the equation lowers my tolerance for BS and I am a lot quicker to react with force if need be to defend myself and them.
Glad you came out of it OK.
A car is a coffin. Get out if you can or move away from the situation in the car if you can. The last place you want to be is in the car IMO. Adding kids to the equation lowers my tolerance for BS and I am a lot quicker to react with force if need be to defend myself and them.
Glad you came out of it OK.
He had a better tacatical advantage by getting out of the car. He can fight and move out of the car. In the car he is a sitting duck.
Leave the wife, never.
Semper Fi
Leave the wife, never.
Semper Fi
Yup. We all have the benefit of hindsight. I, too, believe I would have gotten out of the car. If bullets start to fly, I sure as hell don't want my kids in the line of fire. It's also a lot easier to pull your weapon standing up than sitting down. You have more options to duck, seek cover, pull the perps away from your family and so on outside the car.The comment; "Oh, S&%t! You have kids in there" to me is a big tip that they were up to no good - if honest and not wanting trouble - kids being there should have had no bearing on his intentions.
Also: of course everyone will have their own opinion but mine in this is I definitely would have gotten out of my vehicle - I'd have felt trapped and restricted inside - I can make my point of "Don't mess with me" better standing outside of vehicle.
If I had my wits about me I'd have locked the doors and told one of the kids to call 911 or text Mom to call 911.
Main point - no one, including the kids got hurt. The person reporting the story did just fine.
Wow. Didn't see if there was a true opportunity to just drive off; even if it was only a few yards to a possibly better position. The BGs did give themselves away and the guy who originally posted is just lucky these BGs wanted nothing to do with harming kids.
Given the overall situation, I'd have handed over the 20 bucks if I had it. You don't need a fight with kids and wife as witnesses---especially if you end up beaten down or dead. Twenty bucks is a small price for ending the situation. Of course if that doesn't do it, games on.
That said, my instinct right or wrong, would have been to get out and lock the kids in --using the electronic key fob. I too would have attempted to position myself back against the store where I can watch everything.
In fact, whenever my wife needs a pit stop--which seems to be way too often and I think she needs to see her doc about it--I try to get out, lock the car, and wait directly outside the ladies room or at the front of the store with my back to a wall. I will guard the entrance to the ladies room even if it is in an otherwise safe appearing location; e.g., in an airport. I want to see who is going in, who is coming out.
A few weeks ago she went in to a restroom at a popular ferry landing and came scooting out, "a man's in there." He emerged a moment later and said something like "oops" as he went on his way. However, I don't think it was an accident on his part. He just looked like he was a creep. I want to be where I can hear any disturbance in there.
Given the overall situation, I'd have handed over the 20 bucks if I had it. You don't need a fight with kids and wife as witnesses---especially if you end up beaten down or dead. Twenty bucks is a small price for ending the situation. Of course if that doesn't do it, games on.
That said, my instinct right or wrong, would have been to get out and lock the kids in --using the electronic key fob. I too would have attempted to position myself back against the store where I can watch everything.
In fact, whenever my wife needs a pit stop--which seems to be way too often and I think she needs to see her doc about it--I try to get out, lock the car, and wait directly outside the ladies room or at the front of the store with my back to a wall. I will guard the entrance to the ladies room even if it is in an otherwise safe appearing location; e.g., in an airport. I want to see who is going in, who is coming out.
A few weeks ago she went in to a restroom at a popular ferry landing and came scooting out, "a man's in there." He emerged a moment later and said something like "oops" as he went on his way. However, I don't think it was an accident on his part. He just looked like he was a creep. I want to be where I can hear any disturbance in there.
OK, so now you are distracted as you look in your wallet for a twenty, plus he now knows if you have credit cards on you and of course he has to come closer than the 7 feet from you to get the money from you. All he has to do is draw his knife or gun as you reach out to hand him the money. Your hand is full of a mostly useless in this situation piece of soft leather with some paper and plastic in it. Yet in this situation your natural reaction is try hold on tight to it no matter what. Your not going to think of dropping it to grab your gun. At best your going to transfer it to your weak hand, or worse, try stuffing it back into your pocket. Believe me, your going to go into Auto mode and thats what you automatically do with a wallet. You don't drop it, you put it back in your pocket. Now IF you manage to get it back you can start to think of drawing your gun. By now you are way behind the curve and the BG is WAY to close and could be armed.Given the overall situation, I'd have handed over the 20 bucks if I had it. You don't need a fight with kids and wife as witnesses---especially if you end up beaten down or dead. Twenty bucks is a small price for ending the situation. Of course if that doesn't do it, games on.
You Lose, but thank you for playing.
For the idea of handing over the $20 - it's not unusuall but quite common for me to have NO cash on hand - using debit card only.
Besides - they never believe you don't have any money anyway.
And - it's often a "lead in" request asking for money, cig's, match or whatever just to get in closer for the hit and get...
Besides - they never believe you don't have any money anyway.
And - it's often a "lead in" request asking for money, cig's, match or whatever just to get in closer for the hit and get...
Question for those who want to stay in the car. What is between the BG and you if you step out? Nothing. Based on the original post the BG was 5 to 7 feet away. Well withing the 21 ft distance if he pulls a knife. 5 to 7 feet is definately close enough to start a fist fight before you can get your gun out. Not to mention that there are two potential BG to face if they both come at you. In the OP neither one had a gun, or any other weapon visible, so based on this scenario there was no threat until the guy exited the vehicle and put himself in proximity to the BG with out any barrier. He moved himself into a possition more dangerous than if he had stayed in this car with the doors locked and windows up.
Why is a car a coffin? Can the car not be used to make distance between the BG and you and your children? When backing out of the parking space does the dashboard not give you some cover? Can the car not be used as an offensive weapon if necessary when backing out of the space by turning the wheel to smash the BG between your car and the one parked next to it or to knock the BG out of the way?
There was a thead a couple of years ago about a guy that shot a man after being followed to his apartment parking lot. I believe the guy got some prison time for the shooting. In that thread I suggested an exercise as I will now to those that want to leave the safety of the car. Go home tonight this holiday weekend or whatever, call a buddy or someone else over and do the following. Sit in your car in your driveway, parking lot or someplace of your choosing, lock the doors and roll up the windows, then have the other person attempt to attack you. Once the attack starts, put the car in drive, reverse whatever gear needed to make some distance between you and the attacker, and in the process of making distance turn the car so that is goes toward the attacker. So if they are at your drivers window, if going in reverse, cut the wheels of the car to the right and floor it, if going forward cut them to the left and floor it. Then report back to us how long it took for the attacker to get the heck away from your door and how far you got away from them in a second or two.
If you don't want to subject your vehicle to this test I will offer my Jeep (even with the soft top on) for it, although I get to be the one in the drivers seat, and you will have to be the attacker. A waiver will have to be signed for any injuries that are sustained in the demonstration. :bier:
In the scenario posted, there were no weapons visible or any indication that one was going to be produced. After exiting the vehicle, the dad tried to make distance and demanded distance from himself of the BG. It would have been much easier to simply put the car into gear and make his own distance with his children safely inside.
On a side note, have any of you thought through what you would do during a car jacking. Are you going to exit your vehicle and shoot it out in the street when the person approaches with the gun drawn or are you going to use your vehicle to make distance or as an offensive weapon if necessary from in the drivers seat. I am going to use my vehicle since it can go much faster and is much heavier than me.
Why is a car a coffin? Can the car not be used to make distance between the BG and you and your children? When backing out of the parking space does the dashboard not give you some cover? Can the car not be used as an offensive weapon if necessary when backing out of the space by turning the wheel to smash the BG between your car and the one parked next to it or to knock the BG out of the way?
There was a thead a couple of years ago about a guy that shot a man after being followed to his apartment parking lot. I believe the guy got some prison time for the shooting. In that thread I suggested an exercise as I will now to those that want to leave the safety of the car. Go home tonight this holiday weekend or whatever, call a buddy or someone else over and do the following. Sit in your car in your driveway, parking lot or someplace of your choosing, lock the doors and roll up the windows, then have the other person attempt to attack you. Once the attack starts, put the car in drive, reverse whatever gear needed to make some distance between you and the attacker, and in the process of making distance turn the car so that is goes toward the attacker. So if they are at your drivers window, if going in reverse, cut the wheels of the car to the right and floor it, if going forward cut them to the left and floor it. Then report back to us how long it took for the attacker to get the heck away from your door and how far you got away from them in a second or two.
If you don't want to subject your vehicle to this test I will offer my Jeep (even with the soft top on) for it, although I get to be the one in the drivers seat, and you will have to be the attacker. A waiver will have to be signed for any injuries that are sustained in the demonstration. :bier:
In the scenario posted, there were no weapons visible or any indication that one was going to be produced. After exiting the vehicle, the dad tried to make distance and demanded distance from himself of the BG. It would have been much easier to simply put the car into gear and make his own distance with his children safely inside.
On a side note, have any of you thought through what you would do during a car jacking. Are you going to exit your vehicle and shoot it out in the street when the person approaches with the gun drawn or are you going to use your vehicle to make distance or as an offensive weapon if necessary from in the drivers seat. I am going to use my vehicle since it can go much faster and is much heavier than me.
I understand what you're saying about using the vehicle as a weapon, and using it to gain distance and such. However, just because there is no visible weapon, doesn't mean there is no weapon. If they decide to pull a gun, you are stuck in your "coffin".
The dash offers only concealment, NOT COVER. Cover is bullet proof, a dash is not.
Also, in the scenario given, I would never have considered using my vehicle to gain distance, if my wife is inside the building, I am NOT getting any farther away from her. I want to be back to the wall, right next to the front entrance/exit. I want to be able to see the BGs and my kids at the same time.
Farronwolf, are you going to leave a loved one in the building? Even if you only go back 20 feet, how are you SAFELY going to get them past the BGs and into your vehicle if the BGs don't drive away?
The dash offers only concealment, NOT COVER. Cover is bullet proof, a dash is not.
Also, in the scenario given, I would never have considered using my vehicle to gain distance, if my wife is inside the building, I am NOT getting any farther away from her. I want to be back to the wall, right next to the front entrance/exit. I want to be able to see the BGs and my kids at the same time.
Farronwolf, are you going to leave a loved one in the building? Even if you only go back 20 feet, how are you SAFELY going to get them past the BGs and into your vehicle if the BGs don't drive away?
You have some very valid points.Why is a car a coffin? Can the car not be used to make distance between the BG and you and your children?
In my case it was a potential coffin as the weapon was thrust in my car directly contacting me. Me being in a car limited a lot of options. I failed to recognize what was going on until it had happened and then it was to late.
I rather leave the car iddiling, not parked, but off to the side so I can roll out as a threat rolls in (someone parking next to me and getting close to my vechile automatically signals me time to get out of the area). An agreement must be made between the person getting off at a stop (i.e. gas station) and the person remaining in the vehicle - if X happens, I pick you up somwhere else, circle around, etc. This needs to be done prior to dropping off that person.
You'd rather leave them there to be a victim alone, no help from you? My wife can take care of herself pretty well, but I'm not going to ask her to do that when I can be there to help.
Hand it out through the window
The real issue is which of several actions will get you the most safety the quickest.
The options are 1) drive off, but leaving wife in toilet--- not really an option because she'll walk out right into their hands.
2) Drive a short distance putting your car between the toilet and them and see how they react
3) Stay put and hand over some money through the window and hope they go away
4) Get out and who knows if, or how, a fight will go down.
Keeping in mind that you have your kids separated from your wife, and kids are involved, your likely best bet---yup no guarantee-- is buy your way out and give them a few bucks.
That puts you no worse off really than you would be if you decided to
use the car to drive your way out, or leave the car to pay up or fight, but it does give some chance that the guys will not do anything more.
It is a crappy situation all around and there is no single good answer.
Lots depends on how big you are; how trained you are; how old the kids are; whether or not you can quickly grab a twenty; whether or not there are 2 more "friends" hanging that you didn't see; how fast you can draw; do you have pepper spray.
There are just too many variables. No one likes the idea of handing over money to thugs, but sometimes you can gain a lot by giving up a little.
P.S. If these were hard core turkeys they wouldn't have been spooked by the presence of the kids. That remark showed at least a tiny bit of conscience and decency. Maybe they wanted the car as well as the money but with the kids there they realized they could only get the money. One downside to getting out of the car is the chance that one of them could get in and take the car with the kids or grab a kid as a hostage.
You can hand it out through the car window, with a cheery "have some fun," just lower the window an inch. Yes, you can be shot that way, but you eliminate two threats; a stabbing and a punch or grab. You can give up your wallet if need be. They can't do much with credit cards once reported and your loss is limited to 50 buck which most card companies will cover you for anyhow.OK, so now you are distracted as you look in your wallet for a twenty, plus he now knows if you have credit cards on you and of course he has to come closer than the 7 feet from you to get the money from you..
The real issue is which of several actions will get you the most safety the quickest.
The options are 1) drive off, but leaving wife in toilet--- not really an option because she'll walk out right into their hands.
2) Drive a short distance putting your car between the toilet and them and see how they react
3) Stay put and hand over some money through the window and hope they go away
4) Get out and who knows if, or how, a fight will go down.
Keeping in mind that you have your kids separated from your wife, and kids are involved, your likely best bet---yup no guarantee-- is buy your way out and give them a few bucks.
That puts you no worse off really than you would be if you decided to
use the car to drive your way out, or leave the car to pay up or fight, but it does give some chance that the guys will not do anything more.
It is a crappy situation all around and there is no single good answer.
Lots depends on how big you are; how trained you are; how old the kids are; whether or not you can quickly grab a twenty; whether or not there are 2 more "friends" hanging that you didn't see; how fast you can draw; do you have pepper spray.
There are just too many variables. No one likes the idea of handing over money to thugs, but sometimes you can gain a lot by giving up a little.
P.S. If these were hard core turkeys they wouldn't have been spooked by the presence of the kids. That remark showed at least a tiny bit of conscience and decency. Maybe they wanted the car as well as the money but with the kids there they realized they could only get the money. One downside to getting out of the car is the chance that one of them could get in and take the car with the kids or grab a kid as a hostage.
Visit The Box of Truth and read the tests on the Buick and the 9mm and 40 rounds... all easily penetrated driver's door skin, interior panel and continued through the passenger interior door panel and almost exited the exterior skin on that door as well assuming the round wasn't deflected by the driver's door and into the vehicle... it's not cover.
Will it stop a physical attack? Certainly... until the window is shattered...
I always like reading threads like this because it's experience that can be gained. Thankfully, no one was hurt in the posting of the thread and everyone went home in one piece and no extra holes.
Will it stop a physical attack? Certainly... until the window is shattered...
I always like reading threads like this because it's experience that can be gained. Thankfully, no one was hurt in the posting of the thread and everyone went home in one piece and no extra holes.
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