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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I was stopped tonight by an officer here in MO. We're not a must inform state, but I treat everywhere I go as a must inform just as a general principle. The officer approached the car and I handed him my license and ccw permit and told him I was a conceal carrier and had my weapon on me. It was even in a console that was visible to him and I pointed it out.

He then asked for the weapon to place on top of the vehicle, to which I told him I'd rather not due to 1) not wanting to be disarmed, 2) not wanting to grab the gun and move it around while it's loaded, and 3) not wanting to go for a gun with a cop standing right next to me.

He took my licenses and came back and issued me a warning (phweh) but then told me the next time an officer asks for the gun, to give it or they'll call me in and revoke my ccw.

I'm almost sure that's not the case, given that Missouri is a shall issue state with no duty to inform. Add to that the 4th amendment AND the 2nd amendment, and I don't see how he could do that.

Does anyone here know? (I'm not looking to be lectured. We all have different philosophies on how far to allow the police to step on your rights).
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
No crime is being committed by having the gun in your car, and he'd know I'm a ccw holder when he runs my driver's license anyway. Then he'd be pissed I didn't inform him.

Your 4th amendment rights don't disappear just because you're pulled over. Having a gun in your console isn't a crime in Missouri. So on what basis would they then revoke my ccw license?
 

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Yes he is within his rights to request your weapon while he conducts business. I suggest you do not inform if you do not wish to be possibly disarmed.

I suggest you don't inform unless the officer requests to search your vehicle and you agree. You do not have to agree, but if you don't they may detain you and get a warrant. All depends.

However, if you wish to continue doing things this way I suggest you seek legal advice from a local 2A lawyer.
 

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I will hand over my gun no problem.I will not argue with the cops on the side of the road.If something turns into a problem,this is why we all need to know an attorney. I will ask the cop to put it in his car because I do not need scratches on my $50,000 car. Place it on top of the vehicle? That seems weird.
 
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No crime is being committed by having the gun in your car, and he'd know I'm a ccw holder when he runs my driver's license anyway. Then he'd be pissed I didn't inform him.

Your 4th amendment rights don't disappear just because you're pulled over. Having a gun in your console isn't a crime in Missouri. So on what basis would they then revoke my ccw license?
You just notified him you are armed,he can lawfully disarm you until the encounter is over,as far as your 4th amendment rights you might want to actually research the 4th amendment,
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
He can request the weapon, I'm aware of that. But I do not have to consent. Missouri law is silent, but the 4th amendment isn't. A traffic stop isn't carte blanche suspension of due process.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
You just notified him you are armed,he can lawfully disarm you until the encounter is over,as far as your 4th amendment rights you might want to actually research the 4th amendment,
I have. I know police don't have carte blanche authority to disarm you when you're following the law with the weapon. But I do wonder if he does have the ability to get the ccw revoked.
 

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4A search doesn't apply. You told him already. Temporary seizure is reasonable. He has a legal right to take certain precautions to ensure his safety. Case law is on his side, and if he were to decide to press it, you could end up having a really lousy day. Guy sounds like he was actually pretty cool because he didn't press the issue. Talk to a lawyer, though, 'cause I ain't one.
 

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I was stopped tonight by an officer here in MO. We're not a must inform state ...
No duty to inform, perhaps. That's only one aspect. But that relates to you taking the initiative to inform the officer.

But if asked whether you have weaponry and asked to disarm or made to disarm, you have no recourse but to allow that. It's for officer safety, the temporary controlling of the weapon, and you can indeed be in a world of trouble for refusing or allowing that to be done, beyond any "notification" aspects to your state's statutes.

And if you lie about having a weapon and are then found to have one (ie, via them knowing full well you have a CHL on file and your demeanor/nervousness/responses), you could land in the kettle for lying as well.

Caution. "Duty to inform" has nothing to do with right to refuse to disarm or be disarmed for office safety when demanded to do so. And the claim that it's your 4A right to refuse ain't gonna fly, not in any court in the land (I'd bet).
 

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He can request the weapon, I'm aware of that. But I do not have to consent. Missouri law is silent, but the 4th amendment isn't. A traffic stop isn't carte blanche suspension of due process.
No you are correct. If you have a permit and are carrying in accordance with the law in your state, having a gun in the console is legally no different than having some chapstick or anything else you might find in there. The officer can ask you to do anything he wants, if he has no probable cause to suspect a crime is being committed you don't have to comply. Making the officer feel safe while he does his job is not your responsibility.

You ask a question like that on this site though, you should expect to get the "Just do whatever they want!" responses. Lots of people love to feel like the guys who have badges like them and are on their side. I personally don't get it. Follow the law and that should be the end of it. If you want to feel comfortable all the time while doing your job....don't become a cop.
 

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He can request the weapon, I'm aware of that. But I do not have to consent. Missouri law is silent, but the 4th amendment isn't. A traffic stop isn't carte blanche suspension of due process.
You might think you have the right to refuse to give him your firearm but that is a very good way to find yourself on the ground with a Glock shoved in your ear. The 4th will not protect you in this case. They are not seizing your firearm, they are holding it for their safety. Courts have found over and over that it is legal. If they don't return your firearm, that would be seizing it.

Now in MO you don't need to notify them and if you don't want to be disarmed, it would be best not to tell them, but once you do, expect that in many cases they are going to request your firearm for the duration of the stop. And by "request" they mean give it to them or your day is going to end up not a lot fun.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
You're welcome. Just remember, losing your rights because you you misinterpret them and get arrested is not worth it.
I totally agree. And it's not worth losing my CCW over, which is why I want to be really sure. But I thought the three reasons I gave to NOT hand it over were pretty good. And as far as I understand my rights under the 4th amendment, I seem pretty safe.

PS. I've had officers tell me that Wal Mart shopping carts are $750 a piece, and that hitting one with my car is felony destruction of property, so you can see why I don't always believe what they tell me.
 

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I know some hard core libertarians, and they'll never consent to a search. They're prepared for delays, and although I probably will consent (I'm usually not prepared for delays), I appreciate what they do. All our rights are sacred, and law abiding citizens who take the time to make the Gubmint do it right are helping to secure them in my estimation. I'll also say that if a LEO asks to hold my weapon while we're talking, obviously that makes him more comfy and he's got a dangerous job, I'll comply. That said I feel the same way about it (I'm in MO too).

Just be very careful. Not all cops are good, and even good ones can be having a bad day and in no mood for a principled stand. Some officers loose sight of the concept of "citizens" and start seeing it as "us and them". It's a taxing profession, and lots of people in it really aren't cut out for it. I generally think of cops as allies, but they're sinners too. They can make a bad shoot "good" very easily, and I think you're playing with fire. Their ROE aren't the ones we operate under, and you need to keep that in mind. Not telling you what to do, but making a cop nervous when their attention is focused on you isn't generally a good policy.
 
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