Defensive Carry banner

121 - 140 of 229 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
19,639 Posts
No. That applies to single family dwellings, and somewhat to private clubs. It does not apply to businesses open to the general public.

About five days ago, I had a very long conversation with a real estate attorney specializing in handling cases where rights were not as cut and dry as they are for single family dwellings on 2.5 acres.

Bottom line: "Business property rights are absolutely not absolute." If you don't believe me, try hanging an "open to the public" shingle then telling everyone who walks in with pink or purple hair that you have the right to prohibit them from entering your business. You will be slapped with a suit, then fined along with a court order compelling you to provide service so fast it'll make your head spin.

Bottom line: You do not "ultimately get to decide who is allowed on the premises." That is an oft-repeated and always wrong misnomer. It applies to single family dwellings. Your home is your castle. Your business, however, is not, and you are subject to a myriad of laws concerning your business.

Now, here's what you CAN do. You can kick everyone out and close shop. However, if that happens twice when the pink or purple-haired person comes around, you're in trouble, as you're only closing shop when they're around and you open right back up when they leave, which renders you guilty of utilizing one right as a business owner to skirt the rights and freedoms of your customers. Again, bad news for the business owner who attempts this. They get caught. They get fined. They're compelled to comply with court orders, and if they continue to refuse, judges can eventually, in some areas, shut down your entire business.

I have a question for you: Why do you continue to insist, "they own the property so they ultimately get to decide who is allowed on the premises?"

It's wrong, at least during normal business hours in areas you've opened to the general public.

Now, after closing time, you can tell everyone who comes to the door to go away, and you can even let your friends inside and play cards.

That, however, is a very different legal situation than during normal business hours. Different rules apply.
You're wrong, and you know how we know you're wrong? Because if you were right, people denied entry into a place because they are carrying have NEVER sued and won a lawsuit that their 2a right trumps the business owners rights.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,532 Posts
No. That applies to single family dwellings, and somewhat to private clubs. It does not apply to businesses open to the general public.

About five days ago, I had a very long conversation with a real estate attorney specializing in handling cases where rights were not as cut and dry as they are for single family dwellings on 2.5 acres.

Bottom line: "Business property rights are absolutely not absolute." If you don't believe me, try hanging an "open to the public" shingle then telling everyone who walks in with pink or purple hair that you have the right to prohibit them from entering your business. You will be slapped with a suit, then fined along with a court order compelling you to provide service so fast it'll make your head spin.

Bottom line: You do not "ultimately get to decide who is allowed on the premises." That is an oft-repeated and always wrong misnomer. It applies to single family dwellings. Your home is your castle. Your business, however, is not, and you are subject to a myriad of laws concerning your business.

Now, here's what you CAN do. You can kick everyone out and close shop. However, if that happens twice when the pink or purple-haired person comes around, you're in trouble, as you're only closing shop when they're around and you open right back up when they leave, which renders you guilty of utilizing one right as a business owner to skirt the rights and freedoms of your customers. Again, bad news for the business owner who attempts this. They get caught. They get fined. They're compelled to comply with court orders, and if they continue to refuse, judges can eventually, in some areas, shut down your entire business.

I have a question for you: Why do you continue to insist, "they own the property so they ultimately get to decide who is allowed on the premises?"

It's wrong, at least during normal business hours in areas you've opened to the general public.

Now, after closing time, you can tell everyone who comes to the door to go away, and you can even let your friends inside and play cards.

That, however, is a very different legal situation than during normal business hours. Different rules apply.
I would respectfully point out, that when a business owner prohibits guns in their business, that are not prohibiting a person—they are prohibiting a gun; an inanimate object that has no rights.

The person is welcome; the object is not.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,298 Posts
This Walmart is 50 yards behind my office building.

It is in the hood. The customers are 80% minority except for the people like me who work in the vicinity. They have a continuous police presence either inside or parked near the entrance.

A white guy showing off his gun got all the attention he wanted; and then some.

I walk over there occasionally to pick up something to snack on. Walk in, walk around, leave. No one notices, yet I am fully armed up and not the object of attention, although I may be the object of hate or dislike due to my skin color.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
33,717 Posts
This Walmart is 50 yards behind my office building.

It is in the hood. The customers are 80% minority except for the people like me who work in the vicinity. They have a continuous police presence either inside or parked near the entrance.

A white guy showing off his gun got all the attention he wanted; and then some.

I walk over there occasionally to pick up something to snack on. Walk in, walk around, leave. No one notices, yet I am fully armed up and not the object of attention, although I may be the object of hate or dislike due to my skin color.
Most of the places I go would be very unwelcoming were I to open carry. That includes religious institutions, schools, restaurants, grocery stores and friends' homes. I hate being the object of attention.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,822 Posts
Most of the places I go would be very unwelcoming were I to open carry. That includes religious institutions, schools, restaurants, grocery stores and friends' homes. I hate being the object of attention.
+2 here. I hate being the object of attention except when playing music for money -- then it's OK. Boy, I sure don't want the attention to be on my weapon when I'm playing and singing, though.... :rolleyes:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,817 Posts
No. That applies to single family dwellings, and somewhat to private clubs. It does not apply to businesses open to the general public.

About five days ago, I had a very long conversation with a real estate attorney specializing in handling cases where rights were not as cut and dry as they are for single family dwellings on 2.5 acres.

Bottom line: "Business property rights are absolutely not absolute." If you don't believe me, try hanging an "open to the public" shingle then telling everyone who walks in with pink or purple hair that you have the right to prohibit them from entering your business. You will be slapped with a suit, then fined along with a court order compelling you to provide service so fast it'll make your head spin.

Bottom line: You do not "ultimately get to decide who is allowed on the premises." That is an oft-repeated and always wrong misnomer. It applies to single family dwellings. Your home is your castle. Your business, however, is not, and you are subject to a myriad of laws concerning your business.

Now, here's what you CAN do. You can kick everyone out and close shop. However, if that happens twice when the pink or purple-haired person comes around, you're in trouble, as you're only closing shop when they're around and you open right back up when they leave, which renders you guilty of utilizing one right as a business owner to skirt the rights and freedoms of your customers. Again, bad news for the business owner who attempts this. They get caught. They get fined. They're compelled to comply with court orders, and if they continue to refuse, judges can eventually, in some areas, shut down your entire business.

I have a question for you: Why do you continue to insist, "they own the property so they ultimately get to decide who is allowed on the premises?"

It's wrong, at least during normal business hours in areas you've opened to the general public.

Now, after closing time, you can tell everyone who comes to the door to go away, and you can even let your friends inside and play cards.

That, however, is a very different legal situation than during normal business hours. Different rules apply.
Go buy a large soda and some snacks from the gas station and walk into a movie theater with it in your hand. See how far you get before they tell you to get rid of it. Businesses have the right to disallow people or objects on their property. You should go have a longer sit down discussion with that attorney and get a better understanding of exactly what grounds a property owner can prevent, or must allow entry onto their property.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,822 Posts
In NC, a business owner can put a legal sign on his door that says No Guns and has a picture. If I carry a gun into that store or place of business and get caught -- I'm breaking the law, fined, maybe arrested, and will lose my CC permit immediately. I don't think your attorney is from NC, @since9.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,909 Posts
I do not believe anyone can use the WM is "private property" argument, since they've taken (and still do AFAIK) $$ Billions in .Gov tax breaks, tax incentives, etc.etc. Private property is not paid with tax payer's $$$ not IMO anyway.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,909 Posts
In NC, a business owner can put a legal sign on his door that says No Guns and has a picture. If I carry a gun into that store or place of business and get caught -- I'm breaking the law, fined, maybe arrested, and will lose my CC permit immediately. I don't think your attorney is from NC, @since9.
While that is true in some states, in many states signs have no force of law and policy should never be law, especially when it violates customer's Rights. If they want to ask you to leave, that is one thing , FOL is quite another and has been changing over time as more states see their error.
 
  • Like
Reactions: since9

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,817 Posts
I do not believe anyone can use the WM is "private property" argument, since they've taken (and still do AFAIK) $$ Billions in .Gov tax breaks, tax incentives, etc.etc. Private property is not paid with tax payer's $$$ not IMO anyway.
Thats not how tax breaks and incentives work.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
19,639 Posts
I do not believe anyone can use the WM is "private property" argument, since they've taken (and still do AFAIK) $$ Billions in .Gov tax breaks, tax incentives, etc.etc. Private property is not paid with tax payer's $$$ not IMO anyway.
Private business bailouts through federal money doesn't change the fact it's a private business.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
19,639 Posts
While that is true in some states, in many states signs have no force of law and policy should never be law, especially when it violates customer's Rights. If they want to ask you to leave, that is one thing , FOL is quite another and has been changing over time as more states see their error.
Customers rights, where can I find those enumerated rights spelled out.

I found this, but I don't believe it addresses this discussion

https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/what-are-consumer-rights-31356

Consumer rights are generally a reference to a body of law that pertains to things the producers of goods must do to protect customers from harm. These laws have come into existence through a series of legal disputes, and have been shaped by the results of those cases. In a few instances, some states have actually codified regulations that they refer to as “consumer rights” laws, but this is not yet the majority practice, and even these codifications may not cover all of the principles that are generally considered “consumer rights.”
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
700 Posts
Discussion Starter #133
No. That applies to single family dwellings, and somewhat to private clubs. It does not apply to businesses open to the general public.

About five days ago, I had a very long conversation with a real estate attorney specializing in handling cases where rights were not as cut and dry as they are for single family dwellings on 2.5 acres.

Bottom line: "Business property rights are absolutely not absolute."...<SNIP>...Different rules apply.
Yeah, that's pretty much a bridge too far for me.

If you want to argue that Walmart is somehow taking advantage of corporatist cronyism, that could be a valid argument, but that's not reality. Likewise with many of these ISP's, cellular providers and some of the online platforms like Twitter. They too are gaming the system by acting like a provider and a public utility, when it's to their advantage. I think it's a conversation to be had, though. Just not germane to the here and now and what we're talking about.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,298 Posts
Kiss rules apply .

Always carry, keep concealed , never tell.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,750 Posts
Again Since9 is trying to say what the law is and has not cited a single statute or court opinion to support that claim.
The Supreme Court of the United States has clearly stated that a store is still private property even though it is open to the public.
That is the one Supreme Court as described in Article III of the United States Constitution that is THE judicial power of the United States that all of the inferior courts are obligated by precedent to honor.

So how is it intellectually honest to demand some to adhere to our personal opinion of what the Constitution says while selectively
ignoring it ourselves?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,909 Posts
Private business bailouts through federal money doesn't change the fact it's a private business.
You can't be serious, "bailouts" have not been mentioned, tax $$$ for locating in certain areas, tax breaks from citizen's tax $$ WM taking them (despite being a huge business) , I agree to disagree, when OUR tax $$$ help you to open in a location you're NOT private- not even in spirit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,909 Posts
Customers rights, where can I find those enumerated rights spelled out.

I found this, but I don't believe it addresses this discussion

https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/what-are-consumer-rights-31356

Consumer rights are generally a reference to a body of law that pertains to things the producers of goods must do to protect customers from harm. These laws have come into existence through a series of legal disputes, and have been shaped by the results of those cases. In a few instances, some states have actually codified regulations that they refer to as “consumer rights” laws, but this is not yet the majority practice, and even these codifications may not cover all of the principles that are generally considered “consumer rights.”
Assuming most customers ARE citizens, they're spelled out (and numbered even) called BOR & COTUS 2nd says we have a RIGHT to keep & BEAR arms, now if "everyone " can bar the carrying (bearing of arms) it's not really a right.....not hard concept to grasp. IF they want to post no guns that is one thing to have that carry FOL in fact violates the .GOV prohibitions placed on the .GOV by the BOR pertaining to the 2nd- quite simple really.

Problem is some folks really try to have it "both ways" you have rights but (not really - more like ONLY when certain places/folks allow it) not how Rights work btw. And when your business takes BILLIONS of $$ in tax incentives, tax breaks they become a part of the .Gov also not complicated to understand.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,532 Posts
Assuming most customers ARE citizens, they're spelled out (and numbered even) called BOR & COTUS 2nd says we have a RIGHT to keep & BEAR arms, now if "everyone " can bar the carrying (bearing of arms) it's not really a right.....not hard concept to grasp. IF they want to post no guns that is one thing to have that carry FOL in fact violates the .GOV prohibitions placed on the .GOV by the BOR pertaining to the 2nd- quite simple really.

Problem is some folks really try to have it "both ways" you have rights but (not really - more like ONLY when certain places/folks allow it) not how Rights work btw. And when your business takes BILLIONS of $$ in tax incentives, tax breaks they become a part of the .Gov also not complicated to understand.
No, that’s not how it works, nor should it be. Just because you think it should be that way doesn’t mean it’s right.

As far as restrictions on where you can carry...2A does not say you can do whatever, whenever, wherever with a gun, just because it’s a gun. That’s not how THAT works, either.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AzQkr and Wavygravy

·
Banned
Joined
·
19,639 Posts
Assuming most customers ARE citizens, they're spelled out (and numbered even) called BOR & COTUS 2nd says we have a RIGHT to keep & BEAR arms, now if "everyone " can bar the carrying (bearing of arms) it's not really a right.....not hard concept to grasp. IF they want to post no guns that is one thing to have that carry FOL in fact violates the .GOV prohibitions placed on the .GOV by the BOR pertaining to the 2nd- quite simple really.

Problem is some folks really try to have it "both ways" you have rights but (not really - more like ONLY when certain places/folks allow it) not how Rights work btw. also not complicated to understand.
Check the 10th Amendment, I think you'll find states are granted all rights not exclusively enumerated as null and void in the Doc. They can and do make their own states laws.
 
121 - 140 of 229 Posts
Top