[P95Carry]

I almost regularly get into discussions over safety with guns - it is after all a major deal - or should be. NRA safety rules are just fine - I teach em - but Jeff's rules for me cover just that bit more.

First off for me rule #1 is ''a gun is ALWAYS loaded - no half measure. Finger off trigger until ready, rule #3 - good - very important. Rule #4 too is vital - to know target and what is beyond.

But still - dogmatic ol' me - I will persist and insist that rule #2 is paramount - ''Do NOT point a gun at something - you are not willing to destroy''. It surely has to be the ultimate ''catch all''?

It is IMO the biggest safeguard of all - screw up on the others and still no one gets hurt - worst may be embarrassment due to a new hole where there wasn't one before :biggrin:

Agree? if not - which rule matters most to you.

 

[Miggy]

Sorry Chris. I want ALL respected and followed. I know it is not your intention, but your post suggests that we can get away by breaking or not caring about the rules and, IMHO that is dangerous as hell.

 

[QKShooter]

Confused

Why does one rule need to be more important than any of the others?
The rules be the rules.
Like if you were going to send the space shuttle up.
Would it be more important to check the O-Ring seals than the condition of the ceramic tiles...or the Oxygen level?
Which one would be more important?

 

[Bud White]

Why does one rule need to be more important than any of the others?
The rules be the rules.
Like if you were going to send the space shuttle up.
Would it be more important to check the O-Ring seals than the condition of the ceramic tiles...or the Oxygen level?
Which one would be more important?

Bad Example QK Nasa does not have the best track record lately

 

[Tangle]

Chris wasn't saying all the rules aren't important or that any can be ignored. He's just saying that if the gun is always pointed in a safe direction, if something happens the gun will discharge in a safe direction and essentially do no harm.

I agree with what he's saying. Think about all the UDs (unintentional discharges) you have heard about. The only ones that were tragic was when the gun was pointed in an unsafe direction. If the gun is pointed in a safe direction, a UD is still undesireable, but it's not a tragedy.

 

[QKShooter]

Ok Ok

I'll go stand in the corner with a piece of chewing gum stuck to my nose as punishment on this one.
I see your point.

 

[P95Carry]

Thx Ron - indeed that was the point I tried to make, tho I also am with Miggy in that ''ideally'' of course - all four - ALL the time. That is my way and I am sure same for all here.

Only reason for bringing it up is to highlight what I felt was the ''most powerful'' if you will - meaning if someone is careless then should they at least have rule #2 etched into their thinking - that one alone would still prevent tragedy.

So - no way do I suggest anyone follows only rule #2 to exclusion of the rest - no - just that if I try to place peak importance on any one then that is it! Screw up on the others and #2 still leaves everyone alive and well :smile:

Muzzle sweep in guns stores blatently flaunts that rule - and scares the crap outa me.

 

[Team American]

Chris, I will chip in and agree with you on rule #2...

The only ND I have ever been responsible for occured while hunting elk with my father 3 years ago. I hunt with a Browning BLR lever action rifle (.308...sweet shooter :wink: )....it has a nice, fat hammer and the safe way to carry it while loaded is to chamber a round and then place your thumb on the hammer, pull the trigger, and then lower the hammer to a "half cock" position...when needed, you only have to cock the hammer and it's ready to go.

We rode a 4-wheeler to the place we wanted to hunt from. We dismounted, and I placed a full magazine into the rifle, levered a round into the chamber, and started to place the hammer into the half-cock position....unfortunately, my finger found the trigger before my thumb could control the hammer....result: BLAM!

Fortunately, Rule #2 was being observed and the rifle was pointed straight up into the air...we looked at each other, and I felt about 1 inch tall :redface:

Yes, all the rules are important, but #2 is the last resort for safety!

 

[Bruces45]

Fortunately, Rule #2 was being observed and the rifle was pointed straight up into the air...we looked at each other, and I felt about 1 inch tall :redface:

Thats not a "safe" direction either, what goes up must come down. All of us have done it, but I have heard accounts where someone did it and their bullet struck someone when it came back down.

 

[Jim_Linch]

There is no safe direction most of the time. If a gun is handled, moved, drawn, re-holstered, etc. it will be covering people, pets, yourself, etc. on a regular basis.

Keep you finger off the trigger until you want to shoot what you are covering is the most important rule.

Show me someone who believes that guns should be treated as always loaded, and I'll show you someone who can not clean his gun, dry fire, make ready on a range command, etc.

Dogma leaves little room for common sense and the 4 gun rules try to lower people to the lowest common denominator IMO. A good starting position for a total newb, but even then they should be expounded on from the start.


EDIT:
Team_America points out an exception created by a poor gun design. Having a gun that requires such a dangerous manuver is just asking for trouble.

 

[P95Carry]

Keep you finger off the trigger until you want to shoot what you are covering is the most important rule.

Jim - in a way it is a vital rule, sure but then as we are concluding correctly - all rules are needed in unison.

My only follow-up to that statement tho would be if on loading, let's say ready for carry - there was a slam fire then rule#2 would still be the one to save the day - even if a new hole in the ground!:smile:

 

[rfurtkamp]

I've always been pretty distressed at the fundamental physics problem with #1.

Objects at rest do remain at rest. For those who understand this, it undermines anything else Cooper has to say.

Also, as stated above, it leaves no room for expansion or reasonable situations. If Cooper is followed religiously (and I use that term intentionally as he seems to be often taken as a prophet that one must never disobey), the only place that Glock owners can clean their weapons is on a live firing line.

 

[P95Carry]

the only place that Glock owners can clean their weapons is on a live firing line

I dunno Robert - I reckon if safety is placed high enough then it'd be little or no problem for any of us - Glock owners maybe in particular - to have a safe corner of the gunroom where a few sandbags can live - and towards which one points when releasing trigger.

I don't personally feel the need for those but - it sure would be an easy thing to implement if wanted. An ND in my gun area would be thru floor admittedly but - under that is a thick layer of gravel under which is a layer of slate!

 

[Tangle]

Guys, I'm doing this from memory, so...

But as I recall, in his book, "To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth", Cooper himself talks about how he practices working the bolt on his hunting rifle and dry firing at "objects" that appear on TV. I think that breaks a few rules. But, he's never shot his TV.

 

[Jim_Linch]

Good illustration Tangle of why we need to get past the "mantra" stage of his treachings. I never met the man, but I would hope that he did not teach his craft to others is a dogmatic a style as the followers I have met of his.

 

[Tangle]

Good illustration Tangle of why we need to get past the "mantra" stage of his treachings. I never met the man, but I would hope that he did not teach his craft to others is a dogmatic a style as the followers I have met of his.

I had the privilige of visiting with Mr. Cooper in his home at Gunsite about 6 years ago. I asked him what he thought about Glocks and his reply was, "Throw away guns for throw away cops!". So he can be pretty dogmatic about some things. But he's not like that about everything. I mean who could picture Jeff Cooper sitting in front of his TV waiting for a certain object to appear, working the bolt, aiming and pulling the trigger!

I think some of the "dogma" comes from students that over apply the dogma. For example, some think that since Gunsite was founded by Cooper and he's a 1911 person, that Gunsite is dogmatic about the 1911 as "the" defense gun. That's really not true at all. It's true that that is the gun they recommend, but many of their instructors carry Glocks and Sigs. In fact, I've seen Glocks actually promoted by some of the Gunsite instructors and that doesn't seem to be frowned upon at all by Gunsite.

Anyway, I drift big time - a long winded way to say I agree Jim.

 

[Jim_Linch]

Well to get back on track...

If he dry fires at the TV, he can't be too dogmatic about his own rules. Course when you are "The Dawg" I guess you can't be/do anything you want.

 

[P95Carry]

If he dry fires at the TV,

My thinking Jim was - maybe he just hates TV!

Thus is willing to point at something he DOES wish to destroy! :biggrin:

 

[gregarat]

Elvis never dryfired at his T.V. He made sure his gun was loaded.

 

[Tangle]

Elvis never dryfired at his T.V. He made sure his gun was loaded.

LOL! Good point!