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Discussion Starter #21
Same principle; but we'd have to admit that that is an action that would not be necessary with a Glock, XD, or M&P. In fact, if you were to take a class from Brownie, Integrated Threat Focused Shooting, you would be doing drawing and shooting at half hip. I did it with the Beretta 92fs DA/SA and PX4 DA/SA, and Brownie does the same draw and fire from the hip with his Glock.

But few people could do that at even five yards and get a COM hit; most would have get the gun up to eye level and extend, preping the DA or DAO trigger as they extend and breaking the shot just as they reach full extension or before if the situation calls for it. Kelly McCann addresses this very issue of trigger prep and for shots near the 5 yard mark he teaches trigger prep on a Beretta 92fs durning extension to one of his students in his video. The guys with Glocks, XDs, and M&Ps didn't have to do that.
 

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Brownie and I are friends and have gotten together on more than one occasion, he will vouch for my shooting. I do both com and head shots from the draw, no extention, from five yards.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Brownie will vouch for my shooting too. I'm sure you're proficient with the DA/SA, but my statement was most people aren't and find the DA/SA more difficult than probably any other action. So my critisizm of the DA/SA trigger is not because no one can shoot it well, I shoot a DA/SA very well, but rather because it's a poor overall concept, and just because it can be mastered with enough work, doesn't improve the design.

Cammo girl for example stated that she tried the DA/SA trigger on several guns and the DA was too heavy. So she went with the DAK. But I'm open to thoughts about the subject, what's good about a DA/SA trigger system?
 

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On a closing note, I believe that I have already agreed with your point that for the average person, there are advantages to other systems.
 

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Discussion Starter #25
On a closing note, I believe that I have already agreed with your point that for the average person, there are advantages to other systems.
Actually, I was meaning what is the advantages to you? Preping the trigger isn't an advantage, it's a compensation. Keeping the gun in SA as much of the time as possible isn't an advantage, it's a workaround. Numerous guns provide SA without DA, decockers, or thumb safeties.. The heavy DA trigger is not an advantage; the SA trigger is nice but a Glock with a 3.5 connector is as good on the break and has a shorter, more distinct reset. Especially the M&P with a DCAEK and RAM kit is as good as the SA pull, has a more forceful reset and likely more distinct, and probably cost no more than a Sig DA/SA.

I don't mean to pick, but I simply don't see the purpose of a DA/SA system. Now, having said that, for you, for me, for others that are ingrained with the DA/SA, it's fine and not going to let us down. In fact, you may not be able to ever achieve the same performance with any other action. But as far as the design itself goes, I find it lacking in comparison with other actions. I'm sorry if I implied no one could master the DA/SA, that wasn't intended if it came across that way.
 

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No problem, my feathers don't ruffle easily. The advantages to me are not mechanical, they are comfort, experience and proficiency.
 

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Have handled and shot some of each - In all cases there were some DAO's, some DA/SA's, DAK's I liked and some I didn't like. Some i was accurate with and some i never could manage. I couldn't hit the side of a barn with my Beretta 96 when i got it - Could barely pull the trigger in DOA. Had to cough up a trigger job for it now it's my favorite shooter. But it would be dangerous at some one's head in SA. BG's breath might set it off. DAO was my least favorite until i got my Kahr - After a couple of hundred rounds - I really like that trigger! Hated my LCP trigger so much i sold it 45 days after I bought it. Tried the 738 out in the store today - really liked the trigger on it - not sure but it appears to be DAK or similar - hope when mine gets here tomorrow it feels like the tester. My favorite DA/SA out of the box thus far is my CZ. Have seen some reviews saying the triggers are a little grainy but i found mine to be butter smooth - good weight - DA and SA after only 50 rounds. Now with 300 rds - a true pleasure to shoot Right up there with the Beretta. The DA/SA poses no problems for me on my guns - but some i have tried the DA and SA were so different that it wa.s a struggle - some DAO's i've tried were also a struggle if the pull was to long or to heavy--Just depends on the particular gun to me.
 

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My agency only allowed DAO. I had my SIG 229 converted because I still distrust Berettas. But since I carried a revolver for so many years, the DAO thing never bothered me. For the same reason, DA/SA didn't affect me, but I also trained A LOT. I agree, decockers require more time to master and I was on the line when a "shooter" ventilated his backside because he forgot to decock and then put his finger on the trigger coming out of the holster. I don't believe the DA/SA is the best system for the casual shooter. Shooting on the range and putting away an empty gun do not ingrain the necessary habits to decock after every evolution.
 

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I know this will earn me a lot of booing and jeering, but here goes.

I think DA/SA is the better type of action out there. In a high pressure situation, you always have a first shot without having to think about it. If you miss, your next shots are in 4-lbs single action - and if you can't hit something in single action you have no business owning a gun. Besides, what type of system does the military use most?

I can respect that people use whatever they are comfortable shooting and carrying, so I have nothing against DAK/LEM, DAO, SAO, etc. I just don't get the negative comments about DA/SA. I really don't see how this is inferior to a DAO or SAO or DAK/LEM.

Let's look at the facts: on the DAO system you are limited to a long trigger pull and a long reset. No matter how much you shoot the gun at the range, when it comes time to defend your life, it's not the same. Your hands are probably shaking and the last thing on your mind is going to be "maintain sight alignment" over the 2 inches it takes for the trigger to break. Why wouldn't you rather have a light trigger and quick reset for easier, more accurate follow-up shots?

Now let's look at a SAO system. Light trigger pull, quick reset. However, with SAO you will have to remember to cock your weapon before you shoot it. How is this better than having a DA first shot? At least the gun will work if you forget to cock it. Ok, so if you don't want to worry about this, you can carry your SAO gun cocked and with the safety on. Of course, having the safety means the gun is safe, right? I mean, that's what the word says... but if you flick that safety off by mistake and don't realize it, you could be in for a world of hurt. Depending on the gun, the safety can very easily move to FIRE with the slightest touch. To me this is more stuff to worry about and more that can go wrong than with a decocker. Not that a safety switch is bad - I think it's a good thing on any gun - but depending on it alone leaves a small margin for error.

Now for DAK/LEM/Glock Safe Action, whatever. It's really just a shorter, lighter double action, and shooting it is a good compromise between a long DAO and short SAO . Arguably the easiest to learn, but I personally know two cops who've shot themselves in the thigh with Glocks while reholstering. No further comments here.

To me DA/SA has the best of both worlds. Always a first shot that is very unlikely to discharge accidentaly, easier follow-up shots, and no need to put all your money on a safety switch. And as far as getting used to the change in trigger pull, I just don't get what the big deal is. A lot of people have more than one gun, including Glocks, DAO revolvers and SAO 1911's. I don't know about everyone here, but I like shooting all of them, and I have no problem switching from one to another.

Again, use whatever you feel comfortable with, but I think DA/SA gets a bad rep for no good reason.
 

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Glock vs. XD vs. 1911 trigger and safety

How is the Glock Safe Action and Springfield XD different from a 1911 cocked without the safety? Not asking about the mechanical differences, but what are the real safety differences?

I assume a Glock or Springfield XD trigger/safety is just like a 1911 without a safety.

If Glock Safe Action = Springfield XD = 1911 SA....why not carry a 1911 cocked and not locked?

Jake
 

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I can't stand the Glock trigger "safety". I shoot them poorly because of it. I've been told to train with them, and have done so. I can't get over the nasty feeling of the trigger "safety".
I agree. I just sold my Glocks (23 & 26) for the same reasons. After 2 years of practicing with them, I could not get used to their triggers. I am currently looking at the Sig 229 as my new carry weapon. A local shop in town rents guns and I was able to try a Sig 229 DA/SA (DAK was not available to rent) and an H&K USPc. Although the H&K was a bit narrower, aiding in concealment, I found it's trigger to be a little rougher than the Sig, not to mention the checkering on the backstrap was very rough and uncomfortable for my hand. Now that I have decided on the make/model of my next gun, I am vacillating on whether to opt for the DA/SA or the DAK trigger. Thank you Tangle for this thread. It has definitely shed light on the variations of all of the trigger systems available. This thread, in conjunction with other resources, has led me closer to selecting the DAK trigger.
 

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How is the Glock Safe Action and Springfield XD different from a 1911 cocked without the safety? Not asking about the mechanical differences, but what are the real safety differences?

I assume a Glock or Springfield XD trigger/safety is just like a 1911 without a safety.

If Glock Safe Action = Springfield XD = 1911 SA....why not carry a 1911 cocked and not locked?

Jake
Well, there is that little trigger safety thingy on the Glock, and a longer trigger and heavier pull. But you make a good point. It doesn't take a whole lot more to make a Glock go bang than a cocked 1911 if you're not careful. Actually, a Glock is more likely to go bang than a 1911 to start with :)
 

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Discussion Starter #34
I agree. I just sold my Glocks (23 & 26) for the same reasons. After 2 years of practicing with them, I could not get used to their triggers. I am currently looking at the Sig 229 as my new carry weapon. A local shop in town rents guns and I was able to try a Sig 229 DA/SA (DAK was not available to rent) and an H&K USPc. Although the H&K was a bit narrower, aiding in concealment, I found it's trigger to be a little rougher than the Sig, not to mention the checkering on the backstrap was very rough and uncomfortable for my hand. Now that I have decided on the make/model of my next gun, I am vacillating on whether to opt for the DA/SA or the DAK trigger. Thank you Tangle for this thread. It has definitely shed light on the variations of all of the trigger systems available. This thread, in conjunction with other resources, has led me closer to selecting the DAK trigger.
As behind as I am posting, I would like to post some thoughts regarding specifically the Glock trigger and the Sig DAK trigger:

I like Glocks - period. It's not the only gun I like and I can't say that I like a Glock any more or any less than several other guns. But I love the reset of the Glock trigger. I like what can be a short reset with simple but good connector mods. What i don't like about the Glock trigger is that trigger safety. I must be the only person in the world that has had a number of trigger blocks due to that trigger safety. Here's what happens: as I start to push my presentation speeds, at some point apparently my trigger finger slides across the trigger forcing the trigger safety to the left of the trigger. As I then pull the trigger, the safety flexes and hangs on the left side of the trigger slot. As I said, I must be the only guy in the world that experiences that, because I've never heard anyone mention it.

Regarding the DAK trigger - I like it a LOT! I like the Sig 229/6 guns they come on. I recently purchased a Sig 229R SRT DA/SA and have done a lot of shooting with it and my 229R DAK. I simply shoot the DAK more accurately. I always shoot the DAK in the longer, lighter mode, and rarely if ever in the shorter, heavy mode. While some dislike the DAO trigger, I find a lot of comfort and confidence in it. It is a long pull, like a revolver trigger, but it is very smooth and much lighter than the DA on a DA/SA gun.

I'll just say this, probably get a lot of flack about it, but that's not going to change anything - a DA/SA takes a lot of training and discipline to shoot properly and effectively. You can illustrate this readily by setting up some challenging targets and shooting a DAK side by side with a DA/SA. Shoot three shots from each. You must shoot the first shot of the DA/SA in the DA mode just like you would if you had to draw and fire. Repeat alternating the guns for at least 48 rounds and score the targets.

Another plus for the DAK is not having a safety or decocker to manipulate. One cannot fully appreciate this until he's carried a DAO for a while, be it a Glock, DAK, or a P250. I mainly carry the P250 now in some variation. The trigger pull weight, pull length, reset length of the P250 is exactly the same as the DAK. The only difference between the two is the DAK has the short, heavy mode and the P250 is always the same.

There are essentially seven reasons I choose the P250. One, it is reliable. I'm now at about 1500 rounds through mine without a single issue of any kind, so Sig has the reliability issue resolved.

Two, I can carry all kinds of variations depending on my 'mission'. I have a compact, a full size, and a full-size frame cut back to the compact slide size and I have three X mags to adapt fs mags to the compact frame. So with those options, I can carry a full-size, which I carry most of the time, a full size grip with a compact frame, creating a 'Commander' effect, a compact with compact mags, or a compact with X mags (17 rounds in a 15 round gun).

Three, in a given size, it's lighter than Sig Classic. That may not seem like much, but it can be.

Four, the compact size holds two more rounds than the equivalent sized P229

Five, I have a small grip size for my full-size grip and it has a shorter trigger reach than then E2 type grip.

Six,, accuracy; I, and others such as Bruce Gray, find this gun to be as accurate or more accurate than any polymer gun.

Well, I have drifted, so back to topic with number seven, the DAO trigger: The P250 is about as light and smooth as it gets for an out of the box DAO trigger. Many are surprised at how quickly they can adapt to the P250's DAO trigger, and the same can be said for the DAK trigger. They're so close I can hardly feel a difference. The only significant difference is the P250 has a significantly shorter trigger reach.

In addition to these seven, I should add the resistance to an unitentional or premature discharge under stress. I just read an article about that very thing recently. After a shooting, fear, adrenilene is going to be rampant. Holding a gun under these conditions with the mind racing is not the time to have a light short trigger - things happen. That long trigger pull makes a pre-mature discharge and some unintentional discharges all but impossible. I've seen holstered 1911s with the safety off and I've seen several DA/SAs holstered without being decocked. And this is just the stress produced in training - no where near the stress level of having defended one's life.
 
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I finally read this thread and it was worth the time to go through it; especially for a "newbie" like me with just over one year with handguns. Thanks for all the info.:image035:
 

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Great thread, very informative. I soaked it all up an have found that I am still favoring my DA/SA Sig P220r. I have fired some Glocks and I was quite impressed with the reset on the trigger. I think for me there are too many mechanics involved with making it go bang. I have a LE family member who is a die hard Glock owner and I certainly respect these firearms. I have also experianced Springfield's XDm and have enjoyed various 1911's. I have also trained with Beretta 92's for some years now. Definitly a matter of preference here but I think I will always go with something that utilizes an external hammer (with spur) and a metal frame. out of all these models I prefer my SIG. I cant think of anything that could make it inferior to any other handgun in a SD scenario. Bottom line; It's not all about the gun, It's all about the shooters ability to put bullets into BG's.

PS: To anyone who has tried the SRT, would you consider it enough of an improvement to be worth having it done on my daily driver? I dont want to get it and decide I find it less functional than before. kinda like when I bought those Equinox grips. mag release was set too deep for me to press it without having to dramatically shift my grip on the weapon. blech.
 

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Just my two cents...

The paradigm has been set through historical use (there is no official body deciding these things, right?) The term "Action" refers ONLY to the trigger, and not the operation of the weapon (hammer and striker are fully interchangeable, for example). A trigger action is defined by two words and only two words, the former being a descriptor ("Single", "Double"), the latter being "Action."

So...

Single Action (SA) = a trigger that releases a fully cocked hammer.
Double Action (DA) = a trigger that cocks a fully rested hammer to fully cocked then releases it.

Proposed:
-------------------------
Eliminate SA/DA in favor of:
Both Action (BA) = both a SA and a DA trigger
OR
Either Action (EA) = either a SA or a DA trigger

Eliminate DAO. Now just DA.

To account for Glock, PF9, LC9, Kahr, et al.:
Partial Action (PA) = a trigger that partially cocks a hammer and releases it.
 

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Terrific info on the function of handgun actions here, well done!
 

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Discussion Starter #40
45super said:
Just my two cents...

The paradigm has been set through historical use (there is no official body deciding these things, right?) The term "Action" refers ONLY to the trigger, and not the operation of the weapon (hammer and striker are fully interchangeable, for example). A trigger action is defined by two words and only two words, the former being a descriptor ("Single", "Double"), the latter being "Action."

So...

Single Action (SA) = a trigger that releases a fully cocked hammer.
Double Action (DA) = a trigger that cocks a fully rested hammer to fully cocked then releases it.
I'm not aware of any 'official' definition that states '...cocks a fully rested hammer...'. The defacto definition in long standing use, used by the BATFE to classify a gun as well as the IDPA, is the simple concept of SA or DA. SA meaning one thing - it drops the hammer. DA means it does more than just drop the hammer. So with a Glock, the trigger action cocks a partially cocked striker and then releases it - that's more than one thing, hence it is classified a DAO.
 
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