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Crazy stuff happened today- glad i was armed.

I was getting ready to drive up into the hills above where I live to pattern a new shotgun to make sure i've got the right choke and load combination for the upcoming duck season and couldn't find where i'd placed my pistol, I thought for a moment, "Ah, I'll have my shotgun if i need anything and it's not very far..." But there was a nagging feeling that I needed to get my pistol, I am glad that I did. On the way up to where I shoot in the hills the roads are dirt and really only wide enough in most spots for one car going up and one car going down.

I got to about 2 miles before where I usually do my shotgunning and there was a Ford Bronco going about 5 mph in the middle of the road. I go up shooting in the area about once a week and it's pretty commonly understood that if there's someone behind you who wants to go a little faster, you pull to the side and let them go by. I came up behind the bronco and pulled to the left a little to show that I wanted to pass and then pulled back to following distance. He kept just going slow and not moving over. After a minute I'd pull over to the left and get a little closer to him so he could see me clearly and hopefully speed up a little or pull over to let me pass.

We got to a wider spot in the road and he started to move off to the farther right side of the road and let me pass but when I went to go around him he cranked his wheel back and moved his bronco right where I was accelerating to and slammed on the brakes! I also hit the brakes and since the road was dirt I skidded a little into his bumper with my bumper. I'm in a little crappy toyota 2 wheel drive truck mind you. It didn't do any real damage but a little dent in my bumper. So the skinhead looking guy gets out immediately and I assume it's just to assess the damage or talk to me or whatever and the next thing I know he's opening my driver's side door telling me he's going to kill me/kick my ***** and just about everything else!

He immediately after opening my door reaches in and grabs my collar and starts trying to pull me out of the car. I still have my seatbelt on and i'm hanging on to the steering wheel to keep myself from being torn out onto the road. At this point I'm saying to myself "is this really happening right now? Surely this guy is going to wake up and realize he's being insane!"

We had just driven around a corner on a dirt road up in the mountains and I didn't think putting it into reverse and dumping the clutch would be the best idea... I'd either get pulled out by him and my truck would go over the edge, or i'd lose control of the truck and go over the edge with the truck!

He was getting more and more aggressive and i was getting very scared at this point, probably only 10 or 15 seconds of him trying to pull me out of the car. I know you shouldn't let people get that close to you from the get-go but I assumed he was just wanting to talk about the accident or maybe just tell me how stupid he thought I was or etc.

I realized I had to draw my weapon on this guy or he wasn't going to stop. I was leaning toward the center of the truck, hanging on to the wheel still and he was still trying to pull me out by my neck! I leaned a little farther in and pulled out my gun and pointed it right at him as he backed out of the cab and I sat back up more straight in the car. I told him in a VERY forceful expletive laced way to get back in his car.

The scary thing for me at the time is that this didn't seem to phase him! I am thinking if the roles were reversed and someone had pulled a gun on me or something i would be very apologetic, saying i'm sorry, putting my hands up, backing away, etc. This guy was still about 3 1/2 feet from me just staring at me like he didn't care! The next thing he says to me is "I don't give a @#@% about your @#$#ing gun! I spent the last 12 years in prison for killing a guy and you think i'm afraid of you and your gun?!??"

I honestly thought I'd have to shoot this guy because I was sure he was going to make another attempt at me or try and grab the gun or something. It honestly scared me to death afterwards thinking of how close i'd come to actually being forced to shoot someone.

I cocked the hammer (my gun is DA/SA but I guess just for dramatic effect because it wasn't seeming to bother him that a gun was pointed right at him!) and told him again, very forcefully, to get back into his car. I didn't know if he was on drugs and wasn't affected by the sight of a gun or if he'd been so much into crime and really had killed someone that he was used to having guns pointed at him? I also wondered afterward why he had told that story about being in prison? did he have a death wish and WANT to die? Was he making that part up? it seemed that if he was making it up though he would've said like 10 years or 15 years, not 12 you know?

He slammed my door closed again, and I still had it pointed right at him and he slowly walked back to where his car was but didn't get in so i just kept the sights lined up on him. He then says "Well you wanted to get by me so bad, here's your chance!" Like he wanted me to NOW drive by him?? Why, so his big bronco can push my little crappy truck off the road and down a cliff? So he can follow me and shoot me in the back of the head with the gun that's in his car while i'm driving??

I put the car in reverse and backed slowly to where I could turn around and head back into cell phone service to call the police. I wanted to leave so fast after the door shut and get away that I didn't get a positive match on his license plate, I was pretty sure but apparently not exact.

I dialed 911 as soon as I had a signal, told them the story and they said they don't deal up in that area and that I had to have the highway patrol come help me? So they transferred me and I had to explain the story again and they said they'd send someone up there to the base of the trail where the parking lot is. This is not far from civilization, probably 5 minutes from where I live, but 30 minutes later a sheriff shows up.

He was very nice and took a statement and said he'd wait around to see if the guy came down soon. Nice, but honestly this trail leads to 3 different canyons possibly he could skate down to, he said he'd try and have someone watch those too but I honestly don't think they'll find this guy even with a good vehicle and bad guy description.
Maybe the local PD will surprise me though.

I know I would have been well within my rights to shoot this guy when he was reaching in through my car door at me, and maybe I should have, but it just didn't seem so cut and dry to me at the time. Like if you're in a mall and someone starts shooting up the place, you know you'd probably better take them out. if someone is coming at your family, you'd better shoot. But in this situation i thought maybe he just wanted to act like a tough guy or something or had some excess road rage and I'm glad I didn't have to shoot him, but feel that if he had come after pulling it out and warning him or if he hadn't immediately gotten off of me, I would have had to shoot him and that would've cleared my own conscience of any misunderstandings about it.

I know I took a risk in NOT just shooting him today really when he practically climbs into my car with me but in this situation I don't know if I would've been okay with myself had i just fired first. Does anyone know what I mean when I say this?

It's different when you talk about it on a website "oh if someone's coming after me they're dead!" but when it's you who are the one actually holding the gun in your hand with your finger on the trigger it's different, you want to make sure. I have also, a few years ago before I grew up and got a permit etc, been that guy pulling someone out of their car for something I thought was idiotic.

I think the best scenario came out of this though, I'm safe and didn't have to shoot someone, I am definitely thankful that he backed off just as much as he did when i pulled the gun out. I should have been a better witness for the license plate but honestly just wanted to get out of there and away from this guy.

this just happened today, a tuesday, at like 3:30 pm here in a very low crime area, it goes to show it can happen anyplace at anytime.

I just wanted to tell this story as a reason why we need guns in the hands of good, honest, law-abiding Americans. I know this will never be a stat on some news show about guns actually HELPING people, but hopefully whoever reads this will know I am forever glad that I had a gun today and this can motivate them to always be armed.

Even with my shotgun in its case in the cab with me, that wouldn't have done anything for me at the time. i needed my pistol, loaded and accessible in its holster. Who knows what would've happened, especially on a dirt trail with nobody around, if I hadn't been armed today?
 

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Sounds to me like you read the situation perfect start to end. Didn't shoot, didn't get hurt. A life lesson good grade.
 

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I am really glad you are okay. I bet it helped a little to talk about it too. I have often thought about what it would be like to have to actually draw on someone and I hope that I don't, but that if I do, I will make the right decision.
I have actually run the scenario of actually having to shoot someone and I tell ya, I really hope I don't have to. The thought of it is pretty grim. That said, I will, if it means to protect my wife or kids or myself.
Even my wife, who has never been against guns, is talking about carrying, of her own volition. I am really happy to hear that. I am going to make sure that she gets trained trained trained!!!

But, enough about me. As I said above, I am really glad that it all worked out in your favor. I too hope your sheriff comes through on this one. I don't know how I would react to that situation. I am glad that you didn't have to shoot and that the situation didn't escalate to that.

Again, this is one of the reasons I am going to Front Sight and also one of the reasons I am hoping to get on as an instructor there, so I will make the right choice and I can help others to be able to also.
 

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I bet you couldn't believe just how fast you had yourself in a possible killing situation!

It sounds like you were startled and as you stated... "I can't believe this is happening right now!"

Well, lets hope you would have realized it was happening and would have dropped the hammer on him if he had gotten out of his vehicle with a weapon in hand.

You are going to really have to evaluate and come to terms with why you didn't shoot him!

I don't know what was in your mind, but I'm thinking that you did not shoot because he wasn't armed! You were probably still actively trying to evaluate at what point will I be forced to shoot.

At least for me... that would probably be the only thing to save his life at that point. But being isolated and him choking me and threatening me, I very well may have shot him repeatedly anyway.

As lawful good guys, I think we are all a little hesitant inside to believe we may actually have to shoot someone and I think you had quite a natural reaction of denial. At least for a couple moments.

Thankfully, you came to your senses and after a little smack talk, he came to his as well.

The one thing people frequently can't afford to do is keep saying.... "I can't believe this is happening." It is happening. This time you were able to control the situation and avoid a shooting, but it could have just as well gone either way. You could have been forced to shoot anyway had he continued to attack.

I'm glad it turned out OK. It definitely was a close call. Too close for me.

I think you handled yourself OK for what was happening. A lot of people are going to say you should have shot him! I'm not one of them. Anytime you can avoid having to pull the trigger on someone is a good day. And probably the best course of action in the long run for you. As long as you know you are capable of it if you needed to, and only you can answer that.

Killing situations by there very nature are highly dynamic and happen in the blink of an eye. One moment you're squeezing the trigger and a nano second away from your gun roaring instant death and the next nano second you're holding your shot relieved you didn't actually have to shoot.

Good job mustang... That's about as close as they get!
 

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Sounds like he was high on something. I have found out that 911 is no good when you need help right now. Your pistol saved your life. But there is something else in your account that is telling. The feeling that you needed your weapon and you responded to that feeling or inter voice. When I feel that or hear that inter voice I lesson I take it a message from God to be on guard etc. Know nothing of the area you live in but this nut may start looking for you. I would park your truck out of sight of roadway at your home and watch my six when driving. Be safe, will keep you in prayers
 

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Discussion Starter #6
As long as you know you are capable of it if you needed to, and only you can answer that./QUOTE]
After I got home and soaked in the tub for a little bit I had a chance to think about this: Why carry a gun if you are not going to be willing to use it?

I know though for myself that had he not gotten off as soon as it came out of the holster or had he continued to try and advance on me that I would've been okay to pull that trigger.
if he'd had a weapon also as he got out of the truck I believe I would've been okay for myself also. I think this situation has definitely made more more aware of those feelings and preparing myself. Luckily I made it through this one and hopefully there won't be a NEXT one, but if it does happen I think there will be more of a mental preparedness to handle and assess the situation and not be thinking, Really? this is Really happening right now?
thank you all for your support with this, it's nice to be able to write out exactly how i was feeling and what happened.
 

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Let me start off by saying that im glad youre ok.
And yes a situation can go from good to bad in a heartbeat.

I only have a few things to add.
I know you stated that you were not driving eratic, but in a remote area with no support and no witnesses, I might advise you to keep your distance while driving.

You said you were attempting to get his attention so he would let you pass, well as innocent as it may seem this action may be all that it takes to set off a nut job. He may have just been looking for trouble and thats all it took.

I am in no way saying this is your fault, just saying maybe next time just let the vehicle in front of you go about their business and give yourself plenty of space and time to react..
 

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First of all let me say that what a wonderful blessing that this situation ended the way that it did. I'm glad you are physically okay and pray that you will find peace with all the events that happened.

Secondly, as a new member here trying to learn, I don't have much to offer tactically. But let me say this... I am a firm believer that everything happens just the way it is suppose to happen because there is someone much bigger than us at work. Anytime we can walk away from a life or death situation alive we have accomplished something. Be proud of your actions because today your actions saved two lives. This BG will eventually meet his demise if he continues on his path of destruction. The important thing is that you are alive and well.

God Bless and I will keep you in my prayers.
 

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First of all let me say that what a wonderful blessing that this situation ended the way that it did. I'm glad you are physically okay and pray that you will find peace with all the events that happened.

Secondly, as a new member here trying to learn, I don't have much to offer tactically. But let me say this... I am a firm believer that everything happens just the way it is suppose to happen because there is someone much bigger than us at work. Anytime we can walk away from a life or death situation alive we have accomplished something. Be proud of your actions because today your actions saved two lives. This BG will eventually meet his demise if he continues on his path of destruction. The important thing is that you are alive and well.

God Bless and I will keep you in my prayers.
I agree with you and I LOVE your sig line!!!
 

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I would suggest in the future you meet potential threats no matter how innocent outside the vehicle not sitting down,had he been armed with a knife you didn't see, he coulda had you sliced and diced before you could have drawn.
 

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Wow, I'm glad you are OK.
I think you made the right decision, but what an awful experience.
But searcher hit on something I strongly agree with, that inner voice telling you to take the pistol.
I've been in two situations where my inner voice has told me something was wrong, the first time I just ignored it and the second time I didn't have time to react to it soon enough. In both cases I was fine, but the first time a car was stolen and the second time one was totaled with me in it. You can bet the next time my inner voice gives me a warning, I am going to listen.
 

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Good example of how there are folks running around in our little world who are all to willing to kill you as look at you, for minor infractions or inconveniences. Why? Because they can, because they get a chemical "rush" for doing so, because you can't stop them and that feels good, because momma wouldn't give 'em any the prior week ... whatever. The point is: your life isn't worth spit to some people. Either be prepared to defend it, or not.

I pulled out my gun and pointed it right at him ... told him in a VERY forceful expletive laced way to get back in his car.

The scary thing for me at the time is that this didn't seem to [faze] him!

This guy was still about 3 1/2 feet from me just staring at me like he didn't care! The next thing he says to me is "I don't give a @#@% about your @#$#ing gun! I spent the last 12 years in prison for killing a guy and you think i'm afraid of you and your gun?!??"
That is the moment of truth, right there, for me. Right THERE he just told you he was in prison for murder and all but said he would kill you as well. Given the circumstances, I am fairly certain I would have eliminated him from my vehicle at that point. If the circumstances were as I'm taking them, that is. 3ft away, had nearly ripped me from the car, had just told me he wasn't afraid to do "it" (murder) again, would eject of his own accord, and was perfectly capable of disarming me at the next instant. Time to act, or die.

At least, for me it would be. I'm not physically able to withstand a drawn-out beating or wrestling match with a violent felon (due to some physical damage). If faced with someone who grabbed me, beat me, almost ripped me from my own car while threatening me, and had just got done telling me he wasn't fearful of committing the same crime for which he just got out of prison despite having my gun in his face already ... well, then, the next steps are almost certain, so long as I'm breathing.

If the basic details you told are true, and that the "bumper tap" you describe occurred basically in that way, without fanfare or evil intent on your part, then one can absolutely say that violent physical reaction and threat of you was absolutely unprovoked. NOBODY is required to be threatened with death and take it up the backside. Nobody is required to simply take it. You did well. You also would have been well within your rights, IMO, to stop any and all further aggression, had he deemed to come one nanometer nearer to you at that moment. Good on ya.

A nod to the karma gods, 'cause the wheel of probability spun the other way at that moment. You didn't find yourself required to stop him via perforation, as the violent felon relented at that moment. Good for you, since you just avoided a legal tangle you could do without.
 

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Davis county? Too bad you werent able to get the exact license plate number. I know that Davis county sheriff doesnt mess around. With hunting season now in the mountains, there are people all over up there. Some are just nut cases out drinking beer and cruising the dirt roads as there really is no LE up there besides an occasional game warden. Glad to hear that you didnt get hurt or needed to fire your weapon. With Utah recently passing a law that you do not need a permit to carry a loaded weapon in your vehicle, you never know who is armed and who is not. Even the BG's can legally have a gun in their car. These idiots that live in the SLC valley should know that alot of citizens in Utah are armed but they continue to be jerks. Personally, I hate this city.
 

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I would suggest in the future you meet potential threats no matter how innocent outside the vehicle not sitting down
I would suggest the opposite. Stay in the vehicle with the door locked and the window up.
 

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If the basic details you told are true, and that the "bumper tap" you describe occurred basically in that way, without fanfare or evil intent on your part, then one can absolutely say that violent physical reaction and threat of you was absolutely unprovoked. NOBODY is required to be threatened with death and take it up the backside.
This is a very interesting thread. Let's say after the BG spouted off his mouth he took a step forward and the OP shot him dead.

I'm thinking that he could have possibly been charged because the BG was un-armed. The key question is did the guy have the ability to kill the OP with his bare hands? That is probably very debatable in this case. Simply brandishing to de-escalate was probably the right thing to do.

Any lawyers out there to chime in?
 

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I would suggest in the future you meet potential threats no matter how innocent outside the vehicle not sitting down,had he been armed with a knife you didn't see, he coulda had you sliced and diced before you could have drawn.
Seems like in most cases (not all), you would be better off staying in your vehicle as it makes one hell of a good projectile. Secondly, meeting a potential threat outside of your vehicle could be construed by some liberal prosecutor as an aggressive act (like in a road rage incident). Staying in your vehicle you can at least make the argument that you were purely defensive, getting out tells the aggressor that "It's on".
I agree, if someone gets up in your side window while you're sitting down it's going to start badly for you. This is kind of a tough call.
 

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I would suggest in the future you meet potential threats no matter how innocent outside the vehicle not sitting down,had he been armed with a knife you didn't see, he coulda had you sliced and diced before you could have drawn.
Glad it turned out OK , but that's what I was thinking.

I would have drawn with my gun in my lap when he exited the car and he would have seen it when he attempted to open my door.
He didn't need a knife... a grip on your collar and a ballpoint pen can ruin your day.
You made it home and that's really all that matters.
 

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Seems like in most cases (not all), you would be better off staying in your vehicle as it makes one hell of a good projectile.
Yeah. Though, it's not too many years ago when one could safely and reasonably get out of the car to exchange insurance info and to mutually check out the damage, without risk of murder. Those days are history, sadly.
 

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This is a very interesting thread. Let's say after the BG spouted off his mouth he took a step forward and the OP shot him dead.

I'm thinking that he could have possibly been charged because the BG was un-armed. The key question is did the guy have the ability to kill the OP with his bare hands? That is probably very debatable in this case. Simply brandishing to de-escalate was probably the right thing to do.

Any lawyers out there to chime in?
The question would be did he have the ability to take the weapon away from the OP.
 

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...I'm thinking that he could have possibly been charged because the BG was un-armed. The key question is did the guy have the ability to kill the OP with his bare hands? That is probably very debatable in this case....
Not a lawyer, but I have been in a similar situation. It is all about articulation. Can you articulate that you believed your (or someone else's) life to be in danger, and that eliminating the threat permanently was your only way to survive? I can't say for sure because I wasn't there, but I think in this case, yes. From the way this BG was described, paired with the OP being at a position of disadvantage, I believe deadly force was his only option if the situation had progressed further. You have to remember that just because the BG is not (visibly) armed, does not mean that he will not take away your weapon and use it on you.

Had the situation been different, say the OP had pepper spray in one hand, and a gun in the other, the lines would have been a bit sketchier. But I believe this case is a pretty cut and dried example of self defense.

At any rate good job Mustang, you lived to ride another day. I believe you reacted just as you should have, and probably better than many would have.
 
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