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APachon mentioned in a post on the ''maturity'' thread re having more scenarios. It reminded me of this one - which I drew up and posted way way back on another board. Guess it can have another airing.

So - here you have it - it is actually a close rendition of a gas station I use and one day a very suspicious guy was paying at the register - it prompted me to imagine this scene below if things ''went hot''.

What we imagine is - I am browsing the candy and chips - minding my own business. I hear raised voices at register and see a guy threatening the clerk with a handgun. Sorta ''give me the money, or else''. He appears agitated and nervous - making me think he could well shoot the clerk - and he probably is unaware of my presence - my peeking was just over the top of the display so, I am otherwise concealed.

So - do I stay concealed and let things play out? Do I intercede and shout a verbal warning with my gun in hand (tho hidden) - ready to get a fast shot.? Do I ''go for it'' and cap him? I can justifiably (?) consider a risk to self all the while - even tho he has not seen me and so - would feel I was defending clerk and self.

Note, as per sketch - I have already established a safe field of fire from my position - no personnel or apparent hazards beyond BG.

We could actually spice this further - and imagine from the status quo in the sketch - the entrance into the shop by another customer - sufficient we may imagine to accelerate the BG's actions or even make him start shooting - at the guy who just came in. That would for me make it open season on the BG once even one shot fired. You?


Of course - these scenario deals are just thought provokers - no way of predicting anything. See whatcha think folks. (Edit to add ... distance behind BG to door would in fact be considerably more than in pic .... probably 12 feet or more let's say)



 

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Chris - In my opinion I would go to a kneeling position at the end of the rack nearest the BG, gun in hand pointed at his COM and challenge him to drop the gun, if he turned in my direction I would fire. If he chose to abort his attempt and run out I would let him go, get a good description and call 911.
I would not just let this play out. He has made a choice to threaten the life of another and you can't be certain that he won't carry out that threat even if he gets what he wants.
I still believe in challenging him to drop the weapon rather than just shooting him unaware of my presence. I think the jury would not look kindly to you just "ambushing" him without a challenge.

Any movement other than choosing to run out would get him two to the COM.
 

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Bob - yes, that is probably my action of choice - a kneeling peek at end and sighted on COM - the guy would be crazy to ignore a verbal challenge and sight of a piece. If he did then - tough poop!!

As I said tho of course - these imaginary things are but an excercize - if we ever (Lord forbid) are in such a situation - we play it out as we feel best at the time. So many variables we can never foresee.

I do think the prospect of another customer entering during this play-out - would be, shall we say - interesting!!!
 

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My gut says take the shot. As far as the robber is concerned all he has to do is shoot the clerk and there's no witnesses and no one to write down his license plate number as he drives away.

If you don't do it you're playing God with the clerk's life.
 

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I, too, believe that a challenge to drop his weapon and a two to COM if his muzzle went any direction other than straight down. The only thing I am not sure about is going down on my knee. I would probably shoot from the standing position so I could move quicker if I needed to. A few years ago I probably would not hesitate to kneel but today I am more confident that I could move quick if I remained standing.
 

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Bumper - you too then have ''geriatric knees'' :tongue: They suck eh.

Takes a few milliseconds to reach a squat or kneel - but a week and a half to get upright again!! :biggrin:
 

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Unless BG starts shooting, I would observe and report only. Yes the pistol would be in my hand but, with unknown # of BG's I would rather not engage unless forced to. I would call PD and if things got out of hand step in.
 

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P95Carry said:
Bumper - you too then have ''geriatric knees'' :tongue: They suck eh.

Takes a few milliseconds to reach a squat or kneel - but a week and a half to get upright again!! :biggrin:
Yeah, I have 'em, just don't call them ''geriatric knees''. I'm just not ready for that.... :tongue:
 

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I would call PD and if things got out of hand step in.
Rocky - I gave thought to that - cell phone etc. But knocked it on the head because I am assuming here that my presence is unknown - I am concealed, and quietly so. I fancy speech, even subdued, just might give away my position.

Arguable that may be of course - maybe make the connection and let them trace but still feel action here will be down to me, one way or another.
 

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ACP pretty much hit this one dead center. I too would probably drop to a knee and know that chips do not offer much protection to incoming fire.

Safety off and BG covered with front sight @ COM. Command authoritative voice as many of our local gas stations are going to an audio/video based recording system.

There was just a shooting at a gas station up in the NW here in Vegas (Craig & Decatur) and an armed robbery (Ann & Durango) so my situational awareness has been ever higher recently. Matter of fact, I can't recall the last time I actually went inside a gas station as I use the debit card system to buy my diesel. Wife gets her fuel @ Sam's club. However, if I did venture into this scenario, I would not feel good with myself if I did nothing. I would cover the BG and try to thwart his attempts, and if I did feel threatened, I would stop the threat.

~A
 

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Gotta go with Bumper on this...I'm not much for kneeling anymore....thinking it over a bit, don't know whether better to let him know he's facing a gun or not. He might just keep his pointed at the clerk and turn his head. Taking a shot then might cause him to fire on the clerk....I'd hope I could get his "full" attention at me....meaning turning and taking the gun away from the clerk....then he's mine.
 

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According to my state's law, any person can use force to stop a forcible felony, and in this case we have a forcible felony in progress (criminal side covered). As an officer, my instinct would be to act, but I can see where a likely response would be to stay concealed and hope for the best.

As for warning the perp, he warned himself when he commenced to rob the store. If I decided to act, I would move to the position of best cover and concealment and best backstop and drop the perp.
 

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If I could draw my weapon without drawing attention to myself I would, with my intent being to protect MY life should the individual become aware of my presence and point the gun in my direction. Although I respect other's intentions to use their CCW to protect the lives of others, my justification for having one to begin with is to protect my life and the life of a family member if I feel my life (or theirs) is in danger. At the point where the guy's gun is pointed at the cashier in my mind I would not be justified to shoot even though from a legal standpoint it would probably fly. Without him being aware of my presence and having no reason to point the gun in my direction my life would not be in danger. I definitely would not announce my presence in any way and would let things play out, trying to pay attention to any details that might help the police.
 

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Chances are I'd take the shot. Homicide is justifiable in the event of stopping a felony in progress here.

I'm not going to warn - I'm under no obligation to. He may decide to pop one into the clerk at the sound of "Drop the weapon" and turn and face me. He may pop the clerk after I shoot. He may have a second firearm. He may have a friend outside. I'm thinking that my safest bet is action first, and then assess the situation as it unfolds.

As long as he continues to hold the weapon, he's a threat. I'll shoot until that threat is neutralized and reload if needed or pull out my BUG.

What will happen, I know, is that I won't be going home that evening myself for many many hours if at all. I'll hope that the security cameras capture the robbery with some degree of fidelity and that the clerk survives. Those are my two hopes in the situation - but I know enough of those willing to commit armed robbery that I can't stand idly by in that situation.
 

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I would kneel down on the tips of my feet or else stand in a crouching position. I wouldnt give him a verbal warning, I would throw two his way, this would take him off guard, his first instinct would be to cower. This suprise wouldnt give him the time to consider using the clerk for anything. If he didnt cower then hopefully the next 2 would force him down.
 

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Waldo0506 said:
I would kneel down on the tips of my feet or else stand in a crouching position. I wouldnt give him a verbal warning, I would throw two his way, this would take him off guard, his first instinct would be to cower. This suprise wouldnt give him the time to consider using the clerk for anything. If he didnt cower then hopefully the next 2 would force him down.
Please, replace the word "cower" with "drop to the ground mortally wounded". Do not fire at anything else but him, and shoot to neutralize the threat. Anything less and you're just asking for trouble....
 

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Bumper said:
Please, replace the word "cower" with "drop to the ground mortally wounded". Do not fire at anything else but him, and shoot to neutralize the threat. Anything less and you're just asking for trouble....
His first instinct when shot at would not be to "drop to the ground mortally wounded". I never assume that in any situation my first shots will do the trick, I will always be ready to follow up.

If I yell, like some have said his first instinct would be to get the employee, If I shoot at him his first instinct is to cower, I cant promise anyone 2 shots will do it, if I could I wouldnt need to carry 16.

"Do not fire at anything else but him, and shoot to neutralize the threat."
Is this a joke? What else do you think I would shoot at, the floor?
 

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I spend about 30 minutes, weekday mornings, prior to leaving for work at the local stop & rob shooting the s__t with my buddies. This same scenario was casually discussed among us. 3 of the 5 there that morning were Texas CHL holders and the general concensus was to shoot only when there was a gun pointed at the clerk with verbal threats of life ending actions. The clerk was there and of course stated that he would never expect any of us to come to his aid, but then said he would be eternally grateful for the assistance. Unfortunately his employer considers carrying a gun while working to be a job terminatable situation. I suggested looking for a more liberal boss. This guy works the graveyard shift, alone, with the local nutcases streaming in and out like a colony of ants in a sugar factory. He too has a Texas CHL but leaves it in his auto, locked in the trunk, when at work.
 

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This guy works the graveyard shift, alone, with the local nutcases streaming in and out like a colony of ants in a sugar factory. He too has a Texas CHL but leaves it in his auto, locked in the trunk, when at work.
He's got some cojones to manage that!!

Doncha love these ''safety minded'' employers? Guess they could care less about the safety of their employee's lives. That is downright shoddy!
 

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Sorry guys, the first indication that the robber will have of my presence is when, after taking time to set up the shot, I shoot him someplace in the upper torso, and repeat as necessary. It seems to me that giving him a warning, shouting at him, or trying to convince him to leave is an invitation to a gun fight. I'm not a gunfighter. My idea of a fair fight is, "In the dark, from behind, and at a distance."
 
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