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Discussion Starter #1
Here we go......

You bought yourself a handgun, legal and all, CCW permit the whole nine yards.
You buy a nice new holster, and practice a few quick draw skills in front of the mirror at home. You head out into the big world with your handgun concealed in its new concealable holster. You appoach a 24 hour convenient store,you are looking down at your shoes wondering if your gun is showing, and you enter.
There directly in front of you is a burly guy with a gun, a big revolver you recall, on the same side of the counter as you. He now sweeps the gun toward you, as he is yelling something, but you can\'t hear him, your heart is in your throat, he then sweeps the gun to a petite little girl behind the counter standing at the cash register!You feel your pulse throughout your whole body. You know you have your gun, you are legal, you practiced in front of the mirror that quick draw technique you read about in Handgunner. What are you going to do, it is all happening fast. This guys going to shoot one of you or both!
What are you going to do? This guy is about to point his gun at you again, and he\'s still yelling something!! Here comes the muzzle of the gun.......

So, what did you do, I would like to hear from you.
 

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If he is going to shoot, with out a doubt, then I head for cover draw and shoot. But while I need cover to ensure my safety. This can only be if I see a clear path to cover and have time to get to it, if I have no place to go or no time to do it, then I must draw while he is focused on the woman behind the counter, while moving toward what ever cover is closest and will keep the woman behind the counter out of my shooting lane. Then i can only hope i am faster and a better shot than the BG.
 

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1st OFF, Chameleon, great Scenario. :kay:

Ok to my response, While breaking to a pseudo weaver to give a smaller profile if cover was not available. I would utter something like \"Sh1t, is that the cops rolling up (motioning to a far window)?\" all the while prepping pistol to be drawn and fired. Which in a situation as such should net me a second or two which I am hoping would be all the time necessary to end this scenario with BG on ground, and petite counter girl and myself still upright and void of any unintentional holes.

~A
 

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amen Coma: cover, moving targets are harder to hit, and while he is concentrating on you she can hide too.
Remember He is nervous as well, and likely never practiced much with his gun, has watched too many movies and will want to shoot like the BG\'s there, ( don\'t aim shoot lots).
In a tactial situation your reflexes are the only thing you can rely uppon, so practice, practice, practice.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Hi Guys,
Thanks for the replies thus far.
I will let a few others pipe in and we\'ll see where this goes.
 

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I recently went to an IPSC clinic for newer shooters...I just started shootind IPSC last August, but I\'m 52 years old and have been shooting practically all of my life.

One of the drills was draw and fire 1 rd for an A zone hit @ 3 yds from the beep of the timer. I was using a condition 1 1911. My times with a Kydex holster were 1.65 seconds...the guys with the Ghost rigs (which you aren\'t gonna be toting into a convenience store!) avg\'d 1.25 seconds.

Factor that amount of time into your decision of when/how to draw and fire. Also make sure you take into consideration that one or more of your rds is likely to miss the BG (or pass completely through him) and you prolly don\'t want to hit the young lady behind the counter.
 

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Ok, I\'ll offer what very little knowledge I can muster here.
FIRST, I\'m gonna very conciously (sp?) try to understand what he is saying so I try to get a better idea WHO the players are, here. I damn well dont wanna draw on a plainclothes cop who is running on overload after smoking the real bg one second earlier and who is now yelling for help or telling me to get down cause there\'s a chance of another bg in the store.
Second, I\'m probably gonna pee myself while I move to some sort of cover or back out of the door (get out of the bullet funnel), all the while continuing to try to establish what the hell is going on.
All other actions will be determined by what I can establish as the current state of events and who is participating in this scenario.
Sorry if this is not what you\'re looking for, but without knowing what is going on for sure, I dont wanna produce a firearm.

Dan
 

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What Chameleon didn\'t tell you is the bad guy has called 911, another bad guy is laying in wait for the LEO to show with an AK-47. (this actually happened in our county except there was only one bad guy laying in wait).
I would use APachon approach on distraction yelling at the guy if he wanted my wallet while continue to walk toward the canned goods. No fast draw time here, my .45 fits tight in the hoslter. As I continue verbal exchange I hope the clerk is going to shove or hit him with a bat. Reaching for my wallet my .45 comes out. I am shaking and my 200gr swc spray all over the place. Maybe hit the bad guy once out of 8 shots.
Best I could come up with!!!
 

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Me: \"Hey man is that a S&W Model 29 3\" you have there? I\'ve been looking for one of those. How much you want for it? Does it shoot good? Can I check it for timing and lock-up before I buy it?\"

BG hands me the revolver and then I ask him to leave. All done. :cool:

But more seriously...
I failed at being aware so I wandered into a stop n'rob totally in condition white. Strike One.

I\'m a newbie with a tight holster and very little practice. So depending on how I\'m carrying I\'ll need say 2+ seconds to get off a shot. The BG is already out, wired and coming my way with the muzzle so he needs oh .5-.75 seconds. Strike 2.

So if I really am a newbie, with my tight holster and zero situational awareness. I walked in on this and the BG really is going to shoot me. What I\'m about to do is get shot. If I\'m lucky I\'ll live and so will the clerk. Strike 3 I\'m out.

My not so newbie opinion is...

The BG has already swept me once and didn\'t shoot. However walking in with my head in my fourth point of contact I am now blocking the exit.

So it looks like unless I get the heck out of the way, I may be pushed out of the way at best, or shot at the worst.

Since the BG has already swept me and not shot me, he probably isn\'t real interested in shooting anyone unless the situation changes. IE his exit is blocked or someone does something to provoke him.

I\'d try to bail back out the door I came in and get to some cover. Try to get a description of the BG, his vehicle or anything else I can. Once the exit is clear the BG will likely use it to exit, hopefully without shooting the clerk.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
There is an answer to this scenario, and I will share with you next year...alright tomorrow sometime.
The answers are great! I want to hear some more. JDSummer, and Scott, you guys are doing good.
 

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i would have to say i would step out of the doorway then if he is just sweeping wait and see but if the muzzle raises for a shot i would have say hip shot then finish if needed....
 

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maybe i need to be more clear..now that i read my post i may sound kinda trigger happy but thats not me...i just couldnt leave the counter person in danger like that...i am far from being a tough guy...but thats just how i feel i wont leave that person to take a bullet...step aside and see what happens 1 wrong move do what you have to do
 

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As I stated earlier, without knowledge of who\'s who in this ugly scenario, I\'m reluctant to draw anything but conclusions and a cell phone as I back out of the store.
And actually, peeing myself is part of my strategy. If he is a bg, he now sees the urine stain as a sign of weakness and will become overconfident. If he is a bg and attempts to pursue me, he will slip and fall, thus giving me the needed time to gain the upperhand.
Back to being serious tho.
We are assuming that this is a bg now. As he has not shot anyone that I can see, maybe he doesnt want to. I am perfectly fine w him just leaving, and I\'ll politly step out of his doorway. If he makes a valid attempt to shoot me, all bets are off and I hope like hell my skill outweighs my bad luck for being here. I just need to know who is who and why this dude has a gun. When can I hear what he says, chameleon?
I\'ve had a slightly similar incident to base this on. Afterward, I was actually very surprised at all the good info my previous trainers had instilled concerning weird ass situations, and not drawing prematurely. If, at the end of chameleon\'s scenario, anyone is interested, I will post my experience as a new \'scenario'and you guys tell me what you would have done.

Chameleon, great cliffhanger to a great year. Looking foreward to the \'rest of the story\'.

Dan
 

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Stop and rob??

Another place crap happens so I do my best to stay clear.

IF I go in one, it is with both eyes open and ready to leave if I see anything I do not like.


I carry a gun/s to protect myself and my loved ones.

If i was stupid enough to get into this situation, my hands would go up and I would start backing up, create distance, and try to get behind something that would stop bullets.

This could be a domestic situation that has nothing to do with me. Who knows?
Guy behind me hidden by display could be a cop, and if I draw, I may be the target.

I carry a gun/s to help me get home every night.

OODA
 

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I\'m with jdsummer.

In my CCW class, we ran through this same scenario.
• Is the man a robber?
• Is the man a plainclothes cop arresting the clerk, who is a fugitive?
• Is the man the actual clerk, who was stocking shelves and came back to the counter to find the girl rifling through the register?
 

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My thought on this is to hunt for cover once his attention is on the girl. Because he has already pointed a gun at me once, I feel I am justified to pull mine but keep it hidden until needed. If he ends up being a cop, I\'d try to hide my pistol in a pocket or re-holster if his attention is still away from me. If as a cop, his attention is on me, I\'d set the gun down, tell him about my permit and back away from it.
If he turns out to be a BG, I\'d keep the pistol hidden from his view until it\'s needed.
I hope never to be in a situation like this but I have a CCW just in case. Also being aware of your surroundings when out is most important.
heathen
 

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I believe this has been a good exercise to make us alert and to think about situations we come across in real life. Betty and others have good input for sure. I know my analysis will change over the next day or so.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
There are some great answershere, Betty is spot on. Most everyone came close. Just remember, there are no answers to any given \"What If \" scenarios.

The above scenario was one handed to me many years ago from a little unknown instructor, and I always thought he was great. His name is Paul Smith, he\'s from Ct., and continues to train to this day.

The scenario was all about a lesson on protecting a third party, as law allows in the state of Ct. You are allowed to protect yourself, and loved ones, and even strangers.

You need to be aware of your surroundings, park away from the entrance door to the store, get out of your vehicle, look around, look in the store...the usual training stuff.

In this case, an armed person walks into the store, and is confronted by not just an armed person, but the gun is now pointing at you...yeah, I\'d say you\'d pee your pants, but auditory exclussion takes over your ability to hear. It is the store cleark with the gun, and he\'s yellig to you to call the police!
The petite little girl is the bad guy. If you shot the good guy, this petite little thing pulls her gun from the small of her back, and to show gratitude, she shoots you!

Like some stated above, if you don\'t know what you are walking into, don\'t over react.
The lesson is also to make you aware of your surroundings.
Don\'t be so quick to jump in and help that third person, unless it is family, or a real, real close friend.

Thanks for the answers,

Art
 

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In Ky the law states, that you will be judge on your reasonable perceptions if you are defending yourself.

Examples

SELF DEFENSE: You walk into the store, the (clerk) guy thinking you are another BG, points his gun at you. You think he is the BG and shoot him. You would most likely not be convicted. However you would have to live with killing an innocent the rest of your life. Not to mention what his relatives lawyers would do to you.

DEFENSE OF ANOTHER: You walk into the store, the (clerk) guy points his gun at the girl, and you and you shoot him. You later find out that he was the clerk and the girl was the BG (assuming she doesnt shoot you) You are now criminally liable.

God forbid that any of us ever find ourselves in one of these situations.


Bryan
 
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