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Discussion Starter #1
How different may it have turned out?

The weather is fine and the airplane has reached cruising altitude, people are settled in reading or just watching the terrain. You’re returning to your home following a conference on security. There are ex-military and LEO on this flight not unusual for this part of the country. You wonder how many others are carrying as you are; your government issued .40 cal Glock feels good, its security. Suddenly and with no warning a screaming male shouts something about blowing up the plane while two others are rushing toward the cockpit. Usually there are 3 to 5 terrorist assigned to a flight when they strike. What do we do?? Take it from here guys, what can we do???
Concealed carry on aircraft is allowed providing the airlines were advised by you prior to boarding. A link is provided to set the mood least we forget.

http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/911-sept11-world-trade-center-alqueda.html
 

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Sit back and watch the show. This is going to be good as the LEOs take care of the terrorists.

Oh ok. I would make ready and watch the show. It would really depend on where I was relative to the action as to what I would do. Contact distance I'd probably stab them or strike them with my G2 light with the nice edges. I would probably wait to see what LEOs on the plane would do. I don't want to be jumping up or otherwise moving into someone's line of fire.

-Scott-
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Scott-Under these rules of engagement(for this event) you may carry concealed as a citizen. To do so only requires that the airline be informed you are carrying. The cockpit crew may be armed as well.
 

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Wow, nice one Forty Five.

Sit back and gather intel. No sense in running out guns blazing not completely sure of the odds.

Shot placement is of the utmost concern. Occular Triangles are a must.

~A
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
APachon, glad your here; we need the big guns fast. People who can think and plan with a partner they don't know yet. What about the two guys headed for the cockpit. Who will stand and deliver????
An excited guy is beating someone on the head with a gun!!!! What to do???
 

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I believe I will stay secured in my seat with gun in hand but out of sight by my side. We need to figure out who are the GGs and who are the BGs. I am pretty sure that if you "spring into action" without figuring it all out, a lot of people are going to pay dearly, including yourself. If, as you said, there are armed law enforcement officers on board, a little observation may tell you who they are and give you a chance to communicate with them and let them know that you are armed, will back them up and above all else, you are a GG. I'm not going to make a quick move just because they are trying to get inside the cockpit door any more than a SWAT team will jump out of the truck and run straight into a building where a situation is unfurling. The cockpit door has been strengthened since 9/11.

Once you know where they all are, the nature of their weapons and have them all ahead of you, a clear path to the target (no innocents in the line of fire) and they are about to breach the cockpit or step up the action a notch it may be necessary to make a bold move. Until then I will remain an observer watching for an opening.... :slug:
 

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I agree with Bumper, until you know who all the BG's are and who are the GG's you have to stay put and observe. Once the action starts it is going to be fast and furious. Some exactingly precise shooting will have to take place to avoid hitting inocent people.
If they have breached the cockpit and have overpowered the cockpit crew, then you are going to have to consider who will fly the plane if they are caught in the crossfire.
If the cockpit crew initiates the battle with firearms in the cockpit then everyone else who is armed will have to back them up by taking out the Tango's in the cabin section. The problem here is distinguishing the GG's with guns from the BG's.

If you are an armed citizen and have a mid-eastern or latin appearance you may just want to sit this one out. :wall:
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Really good Bumper, you made some excellant points but you cheated. You have had prior training and experience, hey thats preperation not cheating.LOL. acparmed provided some pretty good insite. How did you guys hold steady while they were beating someone over the head??? They are at the cockpit door and as Bumper pointed out its reenforced, they are beating on the door and have grabbed a women and cut her throat...what now??
 

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If the the cocpit door has been reinforced to withstand a bullet, that sounds to me like the perfect backdrop to shoot the BG's while they arent looking.
 

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Bumper so when we fly together, can I have the window seat and :sleep: ???

~A

Bumper said:
I believe I will stay secured in my seat with gun in hand but out of sight by my side. We need to figure out who are the GGs and who are the BGs. I am pretty sure that if you "spring into action" without figuring it all out, a lot of people are going to pay dearly, including yourself. If, as you said, there are armed law enforcement officers on board, a little observation may tell you who they are and give you a chance to communicate with them and let them know that you are armed, will back them up and above all else, you are a GG. I'm not going to make a quick move just because they are trying to get inside the cockpit door any more than a SWAT team will jump out of the truck and run straight into a building where a situation is unfurling. The cockpit door has been strengthened since 9/11.

Once you know where they all are, the nature of their weapons and have them all ahead of you, a clear path to the target (no innocents in the line of fire) and they are about to breach the cockpit or step up the action a notch it may be necessary to make a bold move. Until then I will remain an observer watching for an opening.... :slug:
 

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FortyFive said:
How did you guys hold steady while they were beating someone over the head??? They are at the cockpit door and as Bumper pointed out its reenforced, they are beating on the door and have grabbed a women and cut her throat...what now??
Hey, I didn't say I would enjoy it and woud second guess my decisions if I was lucky enough to live through this encounter. Jumping in before the time is right is going to accomplish nothing but making you a martyr in the eyes of the BG and that's not part of my objective. Remember one thing, you did nnot create the situation of hostage taking and such. If I choose not to participate at all, I have not caused anyone's death or agony. It is doubtful that this situation can be resolved with no loss of life in the GG column. If you make that assumption, your job becomes one of minimizing the losses in that column and maximizing them in the other. I must assume that I am going to have to take them all out on my own, but that is not likely with LE on board. Hopefully we will all be on different targets so they all go down quickly. Someone in the good column is probably going to die, though...


GoodSamaritan said:
If the the cocpit door has been reinforced to withstand a bullet, that sounds to me like the perfect backdrop to shoot the BG's while they arent looking.
It does me, too, but not knowing exactly what they did to beef those doors up would make me nervous about it I can guarantee you. I would hate accidentaly hit the pilot. Or if I do, I hope acparmed is with me. I could never land my plane in those flight simulator games....
 

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APachon said:
Bumper so when we fly together, can I have the window seat and :sleep: ???

~A
From what you have said in the past, you are considerably bigger than I am sooooo, looks like it will be up to you to be my cover and concealment. :rofl:

Honestly though, I will be right behind ya, Andy :fing02:
 

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I look at it a lot like the bank robbery scenario. The BGs will know CCW is allowed so if they have a plan they will have a "sleeper". Someone who is the cover for the active guys. This BG's job is to take out anyone who tried to stop the active BGs. Any given plane coming in and out of my area will likely have Fed LEO as well as active military. Not to mention we are a shall-issue state, so who knows how many other people will be armed.

So first priority would be to see who else has "the look". You know what I mean, in condition red if you are armed you have a certain way of looking around that is different from all the people who are now scared out of their minds. If possible talk to or signal someone else who is being highly aware. I would try military hand signals first. Fairly simple stuff to indicate which targets each one was going to take and if we could id any other friendlies. In 20-30 sec we should be ready to go.

I don't know that cockpit doors are bullet proof. I don't know that the TSA would advertise it either way. I would ideally want the BGs to be against the gally or lav as a backstop to hopefully stop any rounds that went through them. I would worry not only about the flight crew but blasting the controls to pieces so it wouldn't matter if there was a qualified pilot to fly the plane.

At contact distance I would go HTH with them and hopefully others would join the fight. I think this day in age anyone trying to take an airliner will have a hard time. The old school of they will hijack it and negotiate is over. I think a lot of people will be willing to fight versus waiting to be crashed into something.

-Scott-
 

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Gather intel, sit tight. If shhoting starts take out ant BG's I can from my seat. I would not get up if possible . Any feds or such may mistake you for a BG too, so its tough to call.
 

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Friendly Fire ISNT.

~A
 

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Sorry someone is getting hit on the head and another's throat has been cut. Have to gather information first, then STRIKE with ruthlessness when the opportuniyt presents itself, as it surely will
 

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Discussion Starter #17
The shooting has started! A Federal Marshall is firing on the BG who is beating someone on the head, the FED is located on the starboard quarter(right side to the rear). The BG near the door are turning to see what is going on, what happens now????
 

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Well i would sit there gathering intel with gun in hand last thing i want to do is jump up b4 i have a forsure ideal whats going on.. Dont want someone else witha itchy trigger finger taking me out..

Once i was sure i have the gist of it i would seek some gun toting friendlys and go with a plan of action there ..
 

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I will take a bite of the apple,

Is BG that the Fed is not engaged with armed with a projectile weapon be it ballistic knife or pistol. If yes and I can not discern a sleeper to my 6 I would engage the non-engaged BG while still maintaining some cover. I usually try to sit to the far most back of any plane I ride. So with that in mind, the Fed is either at my 12-1 (directly ahead) or my 10-2 (slight forward flank). I still have a decent view of all and any civilian that does not lower their head will garner some concern from me. After Non-Engaged BG is down from multiple shots, I would position myself in an opposing aisle if this is such a plane that would have dual allies into each cabin bay. The gunshots would definitely notify remaing BG's that their is opposition now on the field of play. Being that I think the scenario started with this being an across the pond flight, I think all planes have dual walkways.

If it is of the 747 variant, there is an upstairs as well. That will also need to be guarded. I am familiar with hand signals and I guess after both BG's are TD clearing from bay to bay would commence till we are at the Cockpit. I am hoping there is more than one Marshall on this flight, if not I am going to definitely demand more than one packet of peanuts for my trouble.

~A

Boeing 747 Schematics






FortyFive said:
The shooting has started! A Federal Marshall is firing on the BG who is beating someone on the head, the FED is located on the starboard quarter(right side to the rear). The BG near the door are turning to see what is going on, what happens now????
 

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Discussion Starter #20
APachon very nice. The FED is engaged with a BG about 12 seats ahead of him, the FED has really unloaded on him! The BG's near the cockpit door have not been engaged yet. Your non-engaged sleeper BG is not known yet to anyone. There are other FEDS on the aircraft, we think they are located left side middle. Don't know location of our guys like Bumper etc.
 
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