shonts, question for you
was going to post this in the other thread, but figured it deserved its own space as its a bit of a tangent.
the question might get wordy, so please bear with me.
you mentioned that you are realizing the world is a dangerous place. therefore, you do see a need for protection at some level. have you taken that realization to the next plateau, where you accept the fact that you may very well be put in the position of using deadly force to defend yourself?
i would say this is the most important part of the evolutionary process of 'potential helpless victim' to 'prepared defender'. if one is not absolutely sure that they can pull the trigger when the time calls for it, carrying is a useless exercise.
some people feel that they could never take another life, no matter what. and thats why you see a lot of questions of 'what would you do if....?' to help prepare our minds for the worst. we do contemplate having to shoot the elderly, the young, women as well as men, perhaps even the mentally disturbed.
we don't wish to kill, we arent bloodthirsty, we only wish to ensure our safety and that of others.
are you ready to do such?
the kicker is that there is no right or wrong answer to that question.
i hope that your decision to carry is not to impress others, or to 'fit in', but out of a true desire to protect the sanctity of life from those who do not respect it.
the question might get wordy, so please bear with me.
you mentioned that you are realizing the world is a dangerous place. therefore, you do see a need for protection at some level. have you taken that realization to the next plateau, where you accept the fact that you may very well be put in the position of using deadly force to defend yourself?
i would say this is the most important part of the evolutionary process of 'potential helpless victim' to 'prepared defender'. if one is not absolutely sure that they can pull the trigger when the time calls for it, carrying is a useless exercise.
some people feel that they could never take another life, no matter what. and thats why you see a lot of questions of 'what would you do if....?' to help prepare our minds for the worst. we do contemplate having to shoot the elderly, the young, women as well as men, perhaps even the mentally disturbed.
we don't wish to kill, we arent bloodthirsty, we only wish to ensure our safety and that of others.
are you ready to do such?
the kicker is that there is no right or wrong answer to that question.
i hope that your decision to carry is not to impress others, or to 'fit in', but out of a true desire to protect the sanctity of life from those who do not respect it.
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spacemanspiff, mshonts; I don't think any of us wants to kill anyone, Only to stop a threat. Death isn't the objective but having means to stop the threat of an aggressor is. Pesonally, I would like the option of tools that will help put the odds more in my favor of not getting hurt or killed. Most of it is a odds game; what are my chances of getting into such situations? If in such situations, what options and tools are at my disposal? Can I use these tools to remedy or deter such situations? Like the LEO's; companies want to offer some level of security as a whole to the employees but on a personnal level, that's null.
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74 Posts
^Betty said:
l
l
uh oh.......so if I change my answer your going to hit me with your mace.....again? (just kidding)
When I am carrying I would certainly not use it to flash around to let other people know that I have a gun on me. The only reason I would use it would be to protect myself if need be or others around me. The last thing that I want to see happen is someone that I love be hurt or even worse killed. Once I do get my carry permit I fully expect for me to take at least yearly classes to stay on top so I won't falter if I ever do have to use it. I am certainly not getting this carry permit just to impress Betty but I do admit that she has played a part in me getting my permit.
:banana: :banana: :banana:
Out of all that has been posted in the other thread and this one, I don't see anything out of the ordinary in mrshonts' concerns about carrying or about his philosophy. Many of us have carried for years and may have forgottent the first time we went out carrying concealed. I thought all eyes were on me, everyone could tell I was carrying, that it might somehow get loose and hit the ground, someone might try to do a grab, etc, etc. First trip out all of that tends to slip away. The more you carry the more you will want to carry. You may find yourself in a tense situation and find that your carry gun made you feel more secure or helped you keep your temper in check. It has certainly helped me feel more in control and laid back during a "situation". I think you are going to "grow into CCW" just fine. You have the ideal companion to help you get acclimated. Now you just need to get your permit and carry often. Eventually, you will (probably) carry all the time.... :wink:
With his interest in that dancing banana I think I would keep him off the fresh fruit isle at the grocery store.... :biggrin:
With his interest in that dancing banana I think I would keep him off the fresh fruit isle at the grocery store.... :biggrin:
Problem 2 is a real concern.
We all hope we never have Problem 1.
Problem 2 is the one that causes many folks to pause and ponder for themselves such matters: 1) Do I get a CCW permit? 2) Do I / Will I actually Carry Concealed? 3) Gets folks to think about awareness, to change playmates, playgrounds and playthings 4) 3 is further defined as " to avoid a situation - don't be there in the first place".
I suspect mrshonts has and will continue to ask himself these questions.
I have no idea of the liabilites of Problem 2 in mrshonts locale when a BG slips on a banana tho'.
Problem 1:
"Let me see your hands now - else I toss the 'nanner peel".
Problem 2:
"Allow me to introduce into evidence the dancing banana's to show the mindset of mrshonts at the time of..."
Use Enough Bananna
We all hope we never have Problem 1.
Problem 2 is the one that causes many folks to pause and ponder for themselves such matters: 1) Do I get a CCW permit? 2) Do I / Will I actually Carry Concealed? 3) Gets folks to think about awareness, to change playmates, playgrounds and playthings 4) 3 is further defined as " to avoid a situation - don't be there in the first place".
I suspect mrshonts has and will continue to ask himself these questions.
I have no idea of the liabilites of Problem 2 in mrshonts locale when a BG slips on a banana tho'.
Problem 1:
"Let me see your hands now - else I toss the 'nanner peel".
Problem 2:
"Allow me to introduce into evidence the dancing banana's to show the mindset of mrshonts at the time of..."
Use Enough Bananna
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I see no problem at all with MrShonts finding himself "fitting right in" to the world of responsible self~defense carry.
There is hopefully ALWAYS some degree of initial internal struggle concerning the possible future use of Final Deadly Force. I hope so anyway.
We are none of us born into this world as Killing Machines.
We should however learn to become Stopping Machines toward those thugs who might wish to stop us for greedy or selfish reasons.
Mrshonts is a person that has dedicated himself to a worthwhile daily life of helping other folks that really do need caring professional help.
It is quite an internal leap going from being professionally trained to "reconstruct human life" to training toward possibly have to end human life.
An intelligent person will quickly come to realize that they are of absolutely no use to the people that need their help and love if they are not here (AKA Alive) to continue their good life work.
We do not learn a desire or an inclination to kill.
We learn that we need a workable ability to stop a deadly threat before that threat stops or incapacitates us.
Mr Shonts will (no doubt) learn to do what he needs to do in the very same responsible and professional manner that he has handled his other life affairs.
And besides...what a GREAT goal he gets to work toward.
He luckily gets to watch Bettys "6" :rofl:
There is hopefully ALWAYS some degree of initial internal struggle concerning the possible future use of Final Deadly Force. I hope so anyway.
We are none of us born into this world as Killing Machines.
We should however learn to become Stopping Machines toward those thugs who might wish to stop us for greedy or selfish reasons.
Mrshonts is a person that has dedicated himself to a worthwhile daily life of helping other folks that really do need caring professional help.
It is quite an internal leap going from being professionally trained to "reconstruct human life" to training toward possibly have to end human life.
An intelligent person will quickly come to realize that they are of absolutely no use to the people that need their help and love if they are not here (AKA Alive) to continue their good life work.
We do not learn a desire or an inclination to kill.
We learn that we need a workable ability to stop a deadly threat before that threat stops or incapacitates us.
Mr Shonts will (no doubt) learn to do what he needs to do in the very same responsible and professional manner that he has handled his other life affairs.
And besides...what a GREAT goal he gets to work toward.
He luckily gets to watch Bettys "6" :rofl:
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Good way to put it Spiffy - good post too.
Much boils down IMO to the ''him/them or me'' aspect. I certainly have zero wish to take a life but bottom line is, that in carry mode I do stand a better than average chance of protecting self and those close to me.
If to achieve that the life of a bad guy becomes the forfeit then so be it - simply because it can be no other way in order to survive. It is purely a necessary choice deal, based entirely on survival, or not.
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693 Posts
Well, I'll admit it, I have some doubts about my own ability. I've never shot anyone.
All of my interactions with 'bad guys' have been serious, but always non-lethal. I think even the aggressors knew I wasn't going to kill them. Oh, I've been angry, but breaking their nose and watching them hit the deck satisfied my lust for satisfaction of a wrong.
And I've been scared. You toss 'the enemy' out of a saloon, and several minutes later one of your buddies tells you a strange car without headlights lit is cruising your lot. And we all know stories about guys losing a fight in a bar and then returning with a gun.
However, it's one thing (at least in my mind) to Mozambique a paper silhuette, and then center punch a real live human being with Gold Dots.
There is some real doubts in my mind if I could do that, even protecting my wife, if other options were available.
My concern would be to stop the aggessor from hurting my wife. A Golden Saber to the knees or the groin would certainly do that. If that was a clear, attainable and useable option, would I take it, or shoot between the eyes?
Look folks, I've spent more money on shrinks and cognitive guys than there is chrome on my bike--and it hurts to say that, really.
I don't know if I have 'it.' And if I do, do I have the 'marbles' to live with that decision.
All of my interactions with 'bad guys' have been serious, but always non-lethal. I think even the aggressors knew I wasn't going to kill them. Oh, I've been angry, but breaking their nose and watching them hit the deck satisfied my lust for satisfaction of a wrong.
And I've been scared. You toss 'the enemy' out of a saloon, and several minutes later one of your buddies tells you a strange car without headlights lit is cruising your lot. And we all know stories about guys losing a fight in a bar and then returning with a gun.
However, it's one thing (at least in my mind) to Mozambique a paper silhuette, and then center punch a real live human being with Gold Dots.
There is some real doubts in my mind if I could do that, even protecting my wife, if other options were available.
My concern would be to stop the aggessor from hurting my wife. A Golden Saber to the knees or the groin would certainly do that. If that was a clear, attainable and useable option, would I take it, or shoot between the eyes?
Look folks, I've spent more money on shrinks and cognitive guys than there is chrome on my bike--and it hurts to say that, really.
I don't know if I have 'it.' And if I do, do I have the 'marbles' to live with that decision.
Tourist sez:
Anybody who has ever repeatedly been in scraps knows pretty well what they are capable of, and lethal or deadly force might not be their first option. In my experience, a guy that's been a scrapper is more dangerous than a school-trained martial artist that's never been in a real fight in or out of the ring because the martial artist doesn't know what's coming. The guy with the crooked nose and the calluses on his knuckles isn't afraid of pain and therefore might be in a better position to eliminate a threat without resorting to deadly force immediately.
As someone who has gone from street fighter to office pogue, I often am amazed at the complete lack of survival instincts those in "polite" company display. They think nothing is going to happen to them and live accordingly.
Believe me, a guy that has pulled a weapon, but is too busy swallowing teeth and gasping for air because of the testicular trauma that has been vigorously administered, isn't much of a threat. That said, I have no doubt that if and when the day comes that you find yourself having to make that decision, experience and knowledge of yourself and your capabilities will help you decide.
You're making a common mistake, bud. You're confusing, "Would I have the stones to kill someone that was attacking my wife?" with "Would killing someone who is attacking my wife be my first response?"
Anybody who has ever repeatedly been in scraps knows pretty well what they are capable of, and lethal or deadly force might not be their first option. In my experience, a guy that's been a scrapper is more dangerous than a school-trained martial artist that's never been in a real fight in or out of the ring because the martial artist doesn't know what's coming. The guy with the crooked nose and the calluses on his knuckles isn't afraid of pain and therefore might be in a better position to eliminate a threat without resorting to deadly force immediately.
As someone who has gone from street fighter to office pogue, I often am amazed at the complete lack of survival instincts those in "polite" company display. They think nothing is going to happen to them and live accordingly.
Believe me, a guy that has pulled a weapon, but is too busy swallowing teeth and gasping for air because of the testicular trauma that has been vigorously administered, isn't much of a threat. That said, I have no doubt that if and when the day comes that you find yourself having to make that decision, experience and knowledge of yourself and your capabilities will help you decide.
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693 Posts
And that's exactly the crux of this arguement at the bottom line.
It was my goal to hurt the guy enough so he would bounce off the deck. Never in my wildest dreams would I have thought of 'killing him' as an option. Even during a mugging.
For me, that's the personal issue. Can I flip on the internal switch from 'combat' to 'eliminate' and live with any consequences that arise? My observation was that many of the guys I've shared a waiting room with deal with the after-affects.
You may well be right. The situation comes, and we react as we have been taught. I've done some things in my life that could be easily be classified as self-sacrifice.
I've also done a few things of 'the yellow stripe' variety.
There's a hero and a coward lurking in each of us. The only question is who is going to be in control when the fecal matter impacts the impellers. One of the things that ran through my head while viewing the scene in "Saving Private Ryan" where the one private stands frozen to the wall while the battle rages around him and a life and death struggle takes place a few feet away was, "I just KNOW everyone is going to rage against this guy without realizing that it could happen to any one of them, too."
The bottom line for me is simple; as long as me and mine walk away safe and intact, whether the miscreant lives or dies is no concern of mine. If he survives and makes a second effort, I will act more vigorously to limit his ability to cause harm. The intent is NOT to kill, rather to STOP them from harming you and yours.
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