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All too often I come across young men who seem to equate their skill in shooting at paper targets that do not shoot back at a range where the paper threat is only in front of you, with the ability to defend themselves against one or more bad guys who are trying to kill them, are moving fast and coming at them from all or unknown directions. I talk to them and make them try to understand that while target shooting brings something to the table in self defense, it does not bring enough to ensure you will survive. Most do not believe me as they have a mental image of themselves free and clear from the powerful effects of the adrenaline surge they have never experienced that comes when facing death.

The only way to make them believers is to get them in a force on force class where they can experience a little bit of what it is like to make quick decisions, have to deal with multiple threats, need to fire quickly without the luxury of getting into a proper stance and obtaining a sight picture, etc.. Read a good story recently about someone using one of those video simulators that force you to make decisions. He saw a man robbing a woman at gun point, yelled to the robber to drop his gun and the robber turned and the screen went red meaning that the good guy was dead. The guy who was in the simulator said it was not fair because the robber just turned and shot him and that was not proper behavior. I think that illustrates how many people think. They form mental pictures of their gun fight in their heads and how they will handle certain situations but fail to realize that the reactions of the others involved in their mental image are not going to be as those assigned to them in real life. Anyway, those who know, know. Would be interesting to hear from others and what they think since they say only 1% of gun owners get any self defense training. I am sure that in some cases it is not needed but certainly in many other cases it might save your life or the life of others.
 

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I reckon there is some truth in what you say there, but just between you, me, and the horses:

I wouldn't have said that to "Jelly Bean" Bryce.
 
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While force on force is fine as a hand to hand thing, but when you start to think in terms of multiple attackers, in most cases the assailants will flee as soon as a gun is produced, weather or not shots are fired or not. With force on force the attackers don't have to risk their lives.
 

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ya i would think if u started firing on the multiple attackers they would NOT keep charging like the vietcong, inless they are vietcong.. i made some steel targets a foot wide that sit on the ground i need to make some human sized ones. but i have 4 of them i set them up from 7 yards 4 yards and just set them at different yardage and i practice shooting on the side of my car/truck behind cover at the targets fast, also slow precise shots (i shoot at a gravel pit so i can do alota stuff you cant do at a range). ill also take shots at all different targets while walking back, forward, left and right
 

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Nothing wrong with ranges and a lot of places i guess this the only place to go to shoot. Im rural so can shoot to my hearts content as far making my own target range changing it up etc. I only practice combat style shooting 95 percent of the time.

Just a side note. While some BGs may run at the sight of a weapon, heck maybe most, trust me that there are quite a few that wont and making that assumption when you draw will likely get you killed.
 

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Not only that OP, I dont think people realize that the moment they draw that gun, EVERYONE else there reacts. Everyone...good guy and bad guy. You lose your element of surprise, someone may call attention to you, they may misunderstand your actions and interfere with your plan, they may get in your way, they may cause panic in what you thought one second before was a situation under your control, etc.

And people that think they'll shoot accurately under fire or extreme stress are kidding themselves. That whole 'difficulty with minor motor functions' thing is not a myth and "Thunder Ranch simulation training" is not the same as real life.
 
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Read a good story recently about someone using one of those video simulators that force you to make decisions. He saw a man robbing a woman at gun point, yelled to the robber to drop his gun and the robber turned and the screen went red meaning that the good guy was dead. The guy who was in the simulator said it was not fair because the robber just turned and shot him and that was not proper behavior. I think that illustrates how many people think. They form mental pictures of their gun fight in their heads and how they will handle certain situations but fail to realize that the reactions of the others involved in their mental image are not going to be as those assigned to them in real life. .
We discuss this here alot but if you have to draw your gun, you have to be ready to use it IMMEDIATELY. No waiting to give the other guy a chance. As you said...there are no rules (for them). No matter what an assailant is 'thinking' when they start to focus their attention on you....if that gun even hints to point towards you, you now must shoot. You are engaged, period. You cant wait to see if 'he really means to pull the trigger.'

I think that is a huge mental committment that people need to understand and overcome BEFORE it ever occurs. And it's not easy. There are so many 'but what if's?' you can ask yourself. I think I have thought it through. I can only hope that I will actually do so if, God forbid, that time ever comes.

(With that said, I am not a 'if my gun clear leather, they are going down' person. If the threat clearly stops when my weapon appears, I am more than happy to not fire.)

It really is a matter of making sure you do not introduce a gun into a situation unless ALL the justifying factors are there...JOA

IMO
 

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No FOF training simulation training or other training will truely prepare you for the real thing against an armed BG.
No matter how you try to mindset yourself in training you will not be able to mindset yourself that you may die in training. Well heart attack maybe but not from your opponents. You know you wont be really killed or shot with a lethal anything.

There is one heck of a difference and you will have miliseconds to overcome it should you ever face it. Not minutes.
 

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Shooting ability does not equal self defense ability
You're absolutely right. Accuracy is only one small component of ability to defend oneself. In a very real sense, self defense has little to do with firearms, per se. It's about all the rest of the equation. And, you're right, most folks don't have a clue until their eyes are opened for them via training.
 

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Great post in my opinion. Reaction takes on average 3/4 of a second that is why action is faster than reaction. Taking cover may be the right answer not pulling a gun. Repositioning yourself before you deploy the weapon may save your life.

There are two types of training being taught today as I see it. The police type of training mostly taught by off duty officers and then the military training taught by military trainers. There is a third taught by people that have never experienced the adrenalin rush of a confrontation but regirgitate what they have learned in a class giving the impression they know!

If I have to survive a street situation I am going with my military training. The person following the police training will probably be on better footing in the court room if they survive.

Just my opinion.
 

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Range time gives you the basics of shooting. SA and training gives you the ability to survive a SD situation. Both are necessary, but I'll take the SA and training over range time if a choice has to be made.
 

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Notice how cops do it. They have two-man teams. This makes an encounter less chaotic. It's almost impossible to deal with multiples alone.
 

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In addition I don't think you can rely on your target-perforating skills in real life. Remember the IPSC guy who shot nearly point blank at a getaway car and missed with all five rounds from his revolver.

I don't think Situational Awareness works - at all - you never get into it or attacked when you expect it. Yes you can have a highly developed SA but it has fail points. Finally, I don't think ANYONE (but a lucky few) can go from all range time, all F-on-F time to a real encounter and performs as expected. Freeze, flee, fight. Most freeze.
 

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You're absolutely right. Accuracy is only one small component of ability to defend oneself. In a very real sense, self defense has little to do with firearms, per se. It's about all the rest of the equation. And, you're right, most folks don't have a clue until their eyes are opened for them via training.
I totally agree.

I was at the range last week and I was talking to this fellow who was a little bit older than myself. He was shooting some sort of 1911 variant and was obliterating the center of the target from probably around 18'. While I was picking up my brass between targets, he started talking to me about how I could improve my accuracy if I stopped shooting at paper plates and would take more time on my sight picture. He was a nice guy and was being quite polite, so I respectfully listened to him before explaining why I choose paper plates and why I wan't 'taking my time'. He listened and said he had never really considered the things I was mentioning but he still felt that his ability to hit a one inch circle would trump all else in a defensive situation. So I offered him a little demonstration on the difference... By the time we had each shot a couple of rounds (each of us shot his way, then my way) he had a whole new perspective and my primary trainer had a new student.
 

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I'll take ten rapid fire rounds from my Glock 30 in a paper plate any day over ten controlled, carefully aimed, un-timed rounds in a gagged hole in the X-ring with an expensive match-grade 1911 any day.

But I'd still like to have the 1911 also.
 
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Advanced technique, is the mastery of the fundamentals.-Bruce Lee
 

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Advanced technique, is the mastery of the fundamentals.-Bruce Lee
One of my favorite Bruce Lee quotes that fits this thread nicely.

Don't get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
 

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... He saw a man robbing a woman at gun point, yelled to the robber to drop his gun and the robber turned and the screen went red meaning that the good guy was dead. The guy who was in the simulator said it was not fair because the robber just turned and shot him and that was not proper behavior.
And how did the guy know the man was not holding a woman who had just pulled a knife on him at gunpoint? SA at play. Not knowing if the woman was a BG or THE BG got him killed. Standing there yelling at someone in a situation you don't seem to have all the details of is a bad choice! In this case he was right but it got him killed. Waiting and getting behind cover before starting to yell at a guy with a gun (for any reason) seems like a MUCH better idea, IMO.

Great story, OP, people need to think of the entire situation -- not just what it seems.
 
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