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Discussion Starter #63
If you were cool, you would be carrying that 45 Shield full-time.

Just sayin'.
I can't run the Shield quite as quickly or accurately as the M&P (especially past 15 yards). Also while I may never need it 13+1 and a 15 round reload just feels better than 6+1 and a 7.
 

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I just started carrying a 9mm again because I can conceal it just fine, it has a great trigger, fits my hand perfectly and holds 15+1. Also 3 17rnd backup mags. Of course it doesn't mean that I won't stop deep carrying my .32 or ignore the option of my 10mm or .45 depending upon the circumstances.

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why bother with anything else when you can carry a .45acp...……..omo.
 
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Shouldn’t have quite carrying 38 super lol. In all seriousness you should carry the firearm which you shoot the best which is a size you will actually carry. First rule of gunfight is have a gun!
Well said, shot placement is key. It doesn't matter how many 9mm shots you fire and miss, the BG will keep coming and if you miss and hit someone else.....

Carry what you shoot best please.
 

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At my age (almost 70 ) I quit worrying about what other people think or what was considered cool a long time ago. I have calibers from.380 to .45, both single and double stack. All my pistols are metal because that is what I like. I have never bought into the Glock phenomenon or polymer. Most of my pistols are Sigs or Kimber’s. I carry what I shoot best and what I can conceal well. Recently bought a Ruger GP100 7 shot .357 and I love it. Might carry it once I get a holster. I don’t have a .38 super, but who knows what will happen this summer. Still room in the safe.
 

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Speaking as an NRA Instructor with 31 years of experience as well as the former Executive Officer for the 9th Infantry Division Pistol Team (1983): Use the caliber and firearm you are MOST accurate with and practice the manual of arms and necessary tactics until they become an integral part of your bodily movements. Stopping power comes from accurate hits in vital areas, immediate stops require more meticulous accuracy.

You could riddle the heart of an attacker and it would still require that he bleed out to a sufficient degree to achieve “hydraulic failure” and in that rundown time, a lot of damage can be achieved by an opponent not aware that he’s even at deaths door.

You’re perhaps instructed to aim “center of mass” for the purposes of stopping an attack. That’s the most basic level of training or instruction. The next level is called “failure to stop.” This requires that two shots be achieved to center mass. Then, pause while maintaining the shooting stance and grip, assess the damage done to the assailant, if any. If there’s still a threat to life and limb, you must instantly segue to a neural net shot.
More than a “head shot.” This is the classic “no twitch light switch.” Exemplified by cutting the brain power to the body. That neural net runs around the head from the upper lip/base of the nose to the mid upper forehead. You’re pretty sure to do this if you take the cranio-ocular shot. That’s thru the eye socket as an aiming point. But it’s got to be a straight line shot. The caliber can be less powerful for this shot because there’s less bone and tissue to get thru to achieve the needed (but never desired) result. That result is the survival of the defender and the total and instant incapacitation of the attacker.
 
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Carry what you want.

If you are serious about it, take a bunch of gun fighting classes, you figure gear out real quick when you are using it in that type
of environment for long periods of time. It’s also when people quit saying my gun never malfunctions.
 

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Sure, I have 9mm's and a .40 as well that I shoot well BUT in my house, the .45ACP is alive! It's my main EDC caliber. Carried my HK USPC .45 stainless slide w/2 extra 12 rd mags last night while my wife and I were out.

I like it when we get a glimpse of a member in their natural habitat.
From knowing your choice in edc I figured you were a man of style and class.
Not disappointed. :yup:
 

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My thinking would be to carry the one that I could shoot best, unless the difference is irrelevant. If I can shoot caliber 1 in a 2" group at 40' and caliber 2 at 2.2" at 40', that to me is good enough. Next would be capacity, more is better. Of course conceal comes into play too. If I have a difficult time concealing caliber 1 but not caliber 2, caliber 2 wins. Every choice is a tradeoff. You need to decide your priorities. IMHO, cool only counts when everything else is essentially a break even.
 

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Discussion Starter #73
Speaking as an NRA Instructor with 31 years of experience as well as the former Executive Officer for the 9th Infantry Division Pistol Team (1983): Use the caliber and firearm you are MOST accurate with and practice the manual of arms and necessary tactics until they become an integral part of your bodily movements. Stopping power comes from accurate hits in vital areas, immediate stops require more meticulous accuracy.

You could riddle the heart of an attacker and it would still require that he bleed out to a sufficient degree to achieve “hydraulic failure” and in that rundown time, a lot of damage can be achieved by an opponent not aware that he’s even at deaths door.

You’re perhaps instructed to aim “center of mass” for the purposes of stopping an attack. That’s the most basic level of training or instruction. The next level is called “failure to stop.” This requires that two shots be achieved to center mass. Then, pause while maintaining the shooting stance and grip, assess the damage done to the assailant, if any. If there’s still a threat to life and limb, you must instantly segue to a neural net shot.
More than a “head shot.” This is the classic “no twitch light switch.” Exemplified by cutting the brain power to the body. That neural net runs around the head from the upper lip/base of the nose to the mid upper forehead. You’re pretty sure to do this if you take the cranio-ocular shot. That’s thru the eye socket as an aiming point. But it’s got to be a straight line shot. The caliber can be less powerful for this shot because there’s less bone and tissue to get thru to achieve the needed (but never desired) result. That result is the survival of the defender and the total and instant incapacitation of the attacker.
Is that a long way of saying....

Priority Targets:
T-Box
Golden Triangle
Pelvic Girdle
 

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Discussion Starter #74
Also when comparing cartridges one should be comparing same guns. Just my .02
A 9x19mm barrel installed in my M&P M2.0 Compact isn't comparing the same guns?

In the case of .45 ACP it's very hard to find the same platform unless it's a 1911. My Shield for instance is a different size platform than the 9x19mm/.40 S&W.
 

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Discussion Starter #75
My thinking would be to carry the one that I could shoot best, unless the difference is irrelevant. If I can shoot caliber 1 in a 2" group at 40' and caliber 2 at 2.2" at 40', that to me is good enough. Next would be capacity, more is better. Of course conceal comes into play too. If I have a difficult time concealing caliber 1 but not caliber 2, caliber 2 wins. Every choice is a tradeoff. You need to decide your priorities. IMHO, cool only counts when everything else is essentially a break even.
9x19mm at 15 Yards Group
.40 S&W would be all 10 Ring
Shield .45 ACP would have one into the 8-Ring.
 

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due to the advancement of modern hollow point technology & reliable expansion the difference between 9mm,40S&W and 45acp is not as big a factor as it used to be
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/ look up your favorite ammo ( in your calibers ) and see what the expansion is
view the expansion & penetration of 9mm,40S&W and 45acp there isn't a lot to be gained by going with a bigger caliber. ( more recoil& slower shot to shot time)
also a small 9mm can hold more rounds ( g-19 15+1) faster shot split times and more shots between reloads is a good thing.
I have been shooting & training since the 1980's, and most of my training out side of military is from the Jeff Cooper play book.
it used to be that in the 80's& 90's hollow points would open from 20 to 30% of the time "on a good day" so the bigger calibers were better stoppers
now we have a lot better expansion from modern ammo.
 

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9x19mm at 15 Yards Group
.40 S&W would be all 10 Ring
Shield .45 ACP would have one into the 8-Ring.
So where is the 9mm hitting? What size is the 8-ring? Also, speed of presentation is important. Can you rattle off six rounds into the CM of a standard-sized silhouette in say 2 seconds with both calibers? From what you are saying about the .40 and the .45 I would stick to the .40 simply because reduced recoil generally means one can get more rounds on target easier and quicker.

Forget bullseye shooting. It's good for comparison and a small part of practice, but for defensive use, it generally comes down to quick, multiple rounds into one's attacker, no matter where it is on the body. Yes, center mass or head shots (especially head shots) are more reliable at stopping a threat, but any and every hit has a psychological impact.
 

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A 9x19mm barrel installed in my M&P M2.0 Compact isn't comparing the same guns?

In the case of .45 ACP it's very hard to find the same platform unless it's a 1911. My Shield for instance is a different size platform than the 9x19mm/.40 S&W.

Certainly I simply misunderstood, I thought you were comparing a 40 M&P and a 9mm shield.

Apologies for the length

Also as for your groups with 9mm at 15yds being 9ring and in is more the sufficient if your comfortable with performance. At the end of the day you are the one who needs to feel comfortable with your choice. I carry 9mm on duty and can pick any cartridge I wish from a auto. That said when not working I switch between 9mm/357sig and 10mm has recently been added.

As for 40cal vs 9mm you get similar expansion similar penetration with less recoil and greater capacity with generally faster fallow up shots. Only you can decide if these things are beneficial to you. I would recommend shoot a timed course and compare your shooting scores and times with both.
 

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Discussion Starter #79
due to the advancement of modern hollow point technology & reliable expansion the difference between 9mm,40S&W and 45acp is not as big a factor as it used to be
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/ look up your favorite ammo ( in your calibers ) and see what the expansion is
view the expansion & penetration of 9mm,40S&W and 45acp there isn't a lot to be gained by going with a bigger caliber. ( more recoil& slower shot to shot time)
also a small 9mm can hold more rounds ( g-19 15+1) faster shot split times and more shots between reloads is a good thing.
I have been shooting & training since the 1980's, and most of my training out side of military is from the Jeff Cooper play book.
it used to be that in the 80's& 90's hollow points would open from 20 to 30% of the time "on a good day" so the bigger calibers were better stoppers
now we have a lot better expansion from modern ammo.
Clear Ballistics Gel is not a reliable media. Bullets that fail to expand in Clear Gel can expand in "FBI" Gel. Bullets that expand and go 20" in CB can go 15" in FG.
 

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Discussion Starter #80
9x19mm at 15 Yards Group
.40 S&W would be all 10 Ring
Shield .45 ACP would have one into the 8-Ring.
So where is the 9mm hitting? What size is the 8-ring? Also, speed of presentation is important. Can you rattle off six rounds into the CM of a standard-sized silhouette in say 2 seconds with both calibers?
That group is the 9mm. I think it was roughly a 2.4" group.
That's a B3 so 8-Ring is 4.46".
But roughly 2" Groups with 40, 2.5" with 9mm. Roughly 3.25" with .45 but it's a smaller platform. Just to be fair I think the accuracy with the 9mm is the particular barrel. Not me.

At 7 Yards it takes me a little over a second to fire 5 shots (Timer starting with first shot and ending with the last) with the M&P 9mm or .40. That is for roughly a 5-7" group on a target. My groups open up on a Silhouette target because of less precise aiming point. I'm about 10-15% slower with the .45 Shield (I'm even slower with a 9mm Shield due to platform size).

At 15 yards I miss the gong a lot at that pace.

I mostly shoot the B29 when I shoot silhouette since I seldom shoot past 15 yards. Should I consider using the full size more?
 
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