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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Should Mentally Ill Adults have carry permits? *Hot Topic*

Here is a hot topic and to let everyone know up front I'm not out to pick on anyone or tell them what to do, I just thought this might be an interesting point of view.

I work with mentally ill adults as a case manger and a few of my clients have carry permits and they do carry a few different handguns on them most of the time. Should they be allowed to carry a gun when they have to take medications to stay stable? Keep in mind that these folks are low functioning and if they stop taking their medications most of them have manic episodes (meaning that they freak out and most of the time end up in the hospital). If you were in my position would you feel safe traveling to their homes and even transporting them from time to time? Would you feel safe being in a bad neighborhood with no protection of your own and knowing that there is a chance of them having a manic episode with you in their home?

The reason they are with our organization is simply because they need that extra person in their life to look out for them and they also need a case manager to make sure they get any community help.

Again, I know this might be a hot topic for some folks out there so don't take this personally.....please! I'm going to wait a little while and then post my own thoughts on this topic...enjoy!!
 

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Good topic.

I think, like anything else, we have to give people the benefit of the doubt on this. Until they are proven by a mental health professional to be dangerous we must assume they are not.

We all have pyschological irregularities of some kind; our own demons we must overcome. I have an irrational fear of heights and pretty girls. At our deepest levels we contradict ourselves.

I'm a strange person with an odd set of values and a peculiar lifestyle in the eyes of many. Should I be denied a permit on that basis alone?

Edit: I can also add I have personal experience with this... But that's a lomg story for another time which unfolded over several months.
 

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If they're safe enough to be on the street, I believe they shouldn't be denied their rights - same as felons.
 

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Im not even gonna touch this one other than to say lets keep it under control as the orginal posted said this will be a hot topic... Try to keep it friendly
 

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Pennsylvania

On The PA LTC app it asks:
ARE YOU A PERSON WHO:
has been adjudicated as an incompetent or who has been involuntarily committed to a mental institution for inpatient care or treatment under Section 302, 303, or 304 of the provisions of the act of July 9, 1976 (P.L.817, No.143), known as the Mental Health Procedures Act;

And Also: Is your character & reputation such that you would be likely to act in a manner dangerous to the public safety? Yes or No

You also need to swear to:
blah blah blah ~~~ I Am Of SOUND MIND "and" have never been committed to a mental institution OR Mental Health Care Facility etc. etc. etc.

It sure sounds to me like the Commonwealth Of PA does not want you to carry a firearm if you have mental health problems.

I am not giving my opinion here as I'm not a mental health care professional. But, I would sure check to see if any person in your care has violated the terms and conditions or lied on their carry permit application if you suspect they might be dangerous to society.
 

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QKShooter said:
It sure sounds to me like the Commonwealth Of PA does not want to carry a firearm if you have mental health problems.
Ditto in Arizona.
 

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Man great question, and this could so be turned into the proverbial slippery slope. It could start with such drugs as Wellbutrin or the like and go so far as to include Nyquil PM that diminishes your capacity. (Hypothetical mind you). What if you are post surgery and are prescribed Ty III with codeine or some other high schedule drug. What then. Pull your CFP while you are under those meds???

At what point are we willing to interject our wishes upon another member of society's rights as given by the 2nd Amd of the US Const?

~A
 

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Fearsome things come in small packages.

Mrs. Honts,

Floyd, I know that you're a professional, but to refer to this segment of society simply as 'mentally ill' throws people who are mindly OCD into the same category as those with severe schizophrenia.

Where's the line and who decides? Does a person dealing with PTSD and voluntarily sees a cognitive guy to be judged under the law as some one who had to be taken into custody over issues of bodily harm?

Dr. Doucheman, I suspect that by initiating this debate you'd like to express your view and the disposition of the rights of a free adult under laws overseen by due diligence.

Well, what the heck do I know, this could be your simple cry for help. Does the hypnotic aroma of 'Ambush' mingled with blue grass and an Oriental breeze give you gut-wrenching fear?

Me? Well, I'm afraid and I'm 1,500 miles away.
 

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Bumper ~

I think probably every State CC App has a few CYA "Mental Health" related questions on it.
Now The Big Questions........
As a paid, employed, health care worker and..."mrshonts" having already filled out the same License To Carry application (for himself) that his patients hopefully, "truthfully" filled out...in order to obtain their respective LTCs ~
Does mrshonts now having full knowledge of those "mental health" questions asked on that carry application...Does he have any legal responsibility to inform an official authority if...he personally feels that a patient could "freak out" & be a danger/threat to society?
That would be a good question for him to ask an attorney...sooner rather than later. I am not a lawyer so I can't say.
 

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In MA we have the same sort of wording on the application.

However we are in a strictly discretionary state and most chiefs will not issue a LTC (our permit to possess or carry) even if you admit you take some drugs for MH issues and have never been committed! [They are allowed to throw whatever they want at you beyond the form that the state law provides.]

A side issue is that MH "professionals"/Drs are too fast at prescribing pills for everything! When I was laid off from the late DEC (1993) one such person suggested I see a Dr to get a prescription for "potential" depression (it was an off-the-cuff remark, not based on any factual need)! I wasn't a patient of said "professional" and I think it was mentioned as "friendly advice", but I already had a plan to start up my own business and certainly wasn't depressed. Had I followed her advice I probably would have lost my LTC and been thrown off the PD (I was a Special PO, no union, no protections, etc.).
 

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OK...I'm Out Of This One

Because...I honestly do not know how one person should make an official determination about what is "normal" in another person before that person actually does something dangerous.
I can only say that it looks like Pennsylvania wants to prevent people that are prone to "freaking out" or have a "documented violent past" from walking around with a concealed firearm.
I am not a doctor & I am not qualified to talk about other people and their idiosyncratic mental health issues.
I guess anybody that "freaks out" or gets violent will get violent with whatever is "available & handy" ~ like a kitchen knife or a baseball bat.
I'll let somebody else decide if they should carry a firearm or not.
It's an area where my personal opinion really does not count for beans.
 

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QKShooter said:
It's an area where my personal opinion really does not count for beans.
Sure it does.

Suppose some liberal sells the public on the issue that mental ill sometimes manifests itself in paranoia. It chooses to defines 'paranoia' as responding to a threat not yet evident.

To many, a guy who packs a firearm and is not in law enforcement is paranoid.

Ergo, you my friend are paranoid, and possibly suffer from a mental illness.

Yikes! A mental illness! We best yank this guy's CCW permit. Boy, it's a good thing his address is listed and his firearm is registered. Just to be safe and thorough, we had better make both the arrest and search warrant read "any and all firearms."

Man, what a nut case, walks around the good old US of A packing heat like he's in Iraq. Look at that crazed look on face when we arrested him--which is public record and will appear on the front page of tomorrow's local paper.

Man, how do these people dress themselves...idiots...
 

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I'm afraid I have to go along with QK on this topic. It's just too full of worms and I don't feel qualified to render judgement on another's sanity.

My opinion is if the majority of this country considers itself sane and normal, I'll gladly remain slightly bent.
 

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It is an interesting one to be sure. However people who drink alcohol can get a permit. Alcohol is a serious depressant and certainly can temporarily alter you.

I have to agree that if you are free to walk around in society, then you should have the same rights as everyone else. That means what it implies, but that is a different can O' worms.

I also see the slippery slope that has been mentioned, and agree that Drs are to quick to prescribe mood altering drugs for any little thing.

-Scott-
 

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My first thought was that they shouldn't have a permit but after thinking on it I figure that if the state issues them a drivers license and they are not known as violent, why not.
Also they would have to be known to continue to take the medication as needed and not the type that stops taking them and becomes uncontrollable or violent.
As noted above, we all have our issues and none are perfect. So I guess my answer is yes if they are allowed to drive and their doctor, with personal knowledge that they are fairly stable, says it's fine.
 

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Texas doesn't want you carrying if there is a mental health problem either. I had assumed that they are somehow able to include that as part of their background check, and most likely it would have to be connected with any arrest records. Not being familiar with any state or fed mental health records keeping, I believe that they cannot just go pulling doctor records, besides that would take a heck of lot longer to do.

I won't get into definitions of mental illness, but there are obvious ones that I doubt any of us would want to see carrying a gun. Yep this could definitely be a Hot Topic.
 

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mrshonts: It would depend on their diagnosis. If by mania you mean violent abnormal behavior, then probably not. People diagnosed with psychosis and schizophrenia shouldn't be walking around armed as their perception of reality is seriously altered. A person with illogical thinking patterns, delusions and hallucinations shouldn't be walking the streets armed.

Should John Hinckley have a carry permit?
 

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The Tourist

I absolutely get your point.
I guess every person has his/her quirky behavior & Lucky Golf Shoes.
Albert Einstein was a fairly strange guy but I would probably trust him with a handgun. I honestly can't add any more suggestions to mrshonts original post because I don't know all that much about people who totally "freak out" or what is going on inside their mind when that happens.
 

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QKS,

The 'slippery slope' in this debate is really about who makes the decision.

For example, most of the poeple here believe that if "a doctor says it's okay" then the citizen should get his permit.

When has that meant anything to a liberal congress? Ultimately, they will take a professional opinion under advisement and define the issue their own way.

Case in point, Wisconsin had a helmet law for motorcyclists for over a decade which was unnneeded and unwanted. As in our debate here, the matter involved free adults who could ascertain for themselves the risks; many would have worn one, anyway.

Not good enough for the liberals. They started a smear campaign of "these guys will be a drain on state coffers with head injuries" all the while we asked these representatives to actually show us the ward where they were kept for treatment.

The truth is, despite Thompson's book, bikers are pretty flush with cash. Bikes cost about 15 to 20K now.

My point is that even when an issue is in reality a 'non-issue,' this does not stop a liberal bent. It should come as no secret here that the Brady crew does not believe CCW permits are necessary despite anecdotal instances where good guys are still alive.

Give them a chance to curtail permits over "sanity issues" and you'll see a rash of legislation heretofore unneeded.

Edit: BTW, Mrs. Honts, I am really looking forward to your upcoming treatise in JAMA, "A Gun Case, a Head Case, and a Case of the Willies." I am a bit concerned where you cite OCD patients exchanging recipes for ballistic gelatin. A minor point, but look at how long it took me to convince you that "bi-polars" are NOT northern bears with a flare for interior decorating.
 

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Unless the person has been involuntarially commited or the dotor feels he poses a violent tenancies I see no reason to deny em a permit. Just my personal opinion. I also know a visually impaired CCW holder. This person has about 60% impairment to his vision.
 
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